Setting the record straight on New Classic S&W M27 & M29 (a futile attempt)...

[Bearbait in NM]

H, above, nailed what I was going to note. As an example, my recent 625PC had a bad hammer rub on the frame ( and a couple other small problems). I think an argument can be made that perhaps the individual tolerances of parts are indeed better, but in the end it all has to fit together properly. I could care less whether a barrel, for example, has perfect rifling from the cut or from someone hand lapping it, but in the end I would prefer it be smooth and correct.

Until such time as every single action to create a handgun becomes automated, there will exist some steps whereby all the perfect tolerances still net an imperfect and perhaps "lesser" final product. Maybe at that point QC will simply be moved to making sure the numbers are plugged in correctly.

Chris, in your industry there almost no room for a mistake. Hundreds of lives are on the line. And while you can make the argument that a firearm does potentially have the life of the user on the line, there is quite a distance between cosmetically and functionally perfect and "still goes bang every time" It still comes down to what goes out the door.

Craig

 

[Watchdog]

Automation has come into widespread acceptance NOT because it makes a better product but because it makes an acceptable product cheaper. It has been industry's response to declining skills and rapidly escalating wages.

That's the best assessment of automation I've heard lately.

 

[CScott]

While my collecting interest is early N-frames through S-prefix I wouldn't dream of bashing modern N frames, that is, N frames manufactured after 1990. I have several and shoot them often. Let me ask the OP, though, if he has ever examined, handled, or operated a Triplelock .44, a Registered Magnum, a Transition Heavy Duty, a 1950 Model .357 pre-27, or a pre-29 .44 Magnum. I would not pretend that they are better guns from a manufacturing standpoint but they are both beautiful and historic examples of production gunmaking. The 1948 Chevy pickup that my neighbor restored isn't a better truck than my 2500HD Duramax, but it sure looks nice and was state of the art when it rolled off the line during the Truman administration. For me it's an aesthetic appreciation thing. I say enjoy your modern N-frames and appreciate the fact that your Model 27 and Model 29 have a long and distinguished history behind them.

.44HE Military, 2nd Model, shipped December 17, 1939. Check out those pre-war Magnas. Hubba-hubba!

I have several modern revolvers that are very, very good but my older classics take the cake every time.
There is no equivalent to a good old Smith any more than there is a modern "expression" equivalent to "Hubba-hubba".
Happy Holidays!
Scott

 

[Coaltminer]

The worm can has been opened again! I think argument can be made for both sides. I own 2 Smith revolvers at present, a 581 from '82 and a 29 from 2010, and have owned dozens since the late '60's. Liked em all! They still make a wide assortment of great guns, although I do prefer the Classic line as they are blue, or nickel. I'll take new or old, but it's getting quite difficult to find parts for the older guns.

 

[6518John]

I also am a practicing engineer (mechanical); also in aerospace manufacture and overhaul/refurbishment. My expertise is in repair development engineering; which is largely a one-off, largely manual process. Every time I hear someone espouse the wonders of automation and computerization over 'the old-fashioned manual way of doing things', I am remined of the movie "Westworld", where absolutely nothing can go wrong - tell that to Richard Benjamin's character while he is pursued by Yul Brenner.

Automation has come into widespread acceptance NOT because it makes a better product but because it makes an acceptable product cheaper. It has been industry's response to declining skills and rapidly escalating wages.

I have personally stood in machine shops and manufacturing facilities and watched with amazement what CNC and automation can do. But I am always haunted by this gun company which is local and one with which I am familiar. The have the most advanced CNC and machine all parts from billet steel. But with all the advanced machinery the pistols ultimately are put together and hand fitted by good 'ole boys. They even show you a video of how each pistol is made. Nighthawk Custom Firearms specializing in quality handcrafted custom 1911 pistols If a machine could spit out a better pistol, they would use it, I promise.

To me it's like I heard Bobby Bowden say one time, "the game is not about "X's" and "O's," it's about your Jimmy's and Joe's."

I don't think we will ever machine or automate away the human touch.

 

[Georgia1911]

Must not feed the trolls, it only encourages them.

 

[unclebob]

my experience only...
I have a older model 27, 36 and 59 and none of these were ever sent back for warranty work, they have been flawless out of the box, from some of the post i have read here the m&p's can't say that....

 

[Gunhacker]

Must not feed the trolls, it only encourages them.

Why have you called "troll"? The OP has stayed engaged in this tread, responding to replies.

Now back on topic, when you look at the majority of complaints regarding the new S&W's, they are centered upon the quality control of the product, and cosmetics... fit & finish.

There is stuff being sold that "in the old days" would not have routinely made it out to the factory, yeah they still had something slip out, but it was few and far between.

Case in point... the new M69 L-Frame .44 Magnum, how many posts has there been from new owners having to send their gun back to the factory because something is wrong right out of the box, like the locking detent on the crane. That offsets the otherwise glowing reviews from other owners and naturally puts other people off from wanting them.

What we're seeing is not indicative of a systemic failure of technology, it's a sign of something wrong within S&W Corporate that needs fixing.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

This thread is delicious. I "liked" two totally opposing comments. I am very possibly the least handy person on this Forum, definitely top ten, I am ignorant as a newborn on most engineering matters. I will note that I have several "new" S&W revolvers, with the much maligned IL that bothers me not one whit, including a M27 Classic, and a lot of older ones, and I just find them all to be gorgeous, wonderful machines, top notch toys, and excellent tools. I don't dwell much on new era versus prior era - if they fit into my collection, and I have the money handy, I buy them.

But I did enjoy this discussion immensely!

Now if they'd just bring back the 3rd Gen pistols......but I digress.....

***GRJ***

 

[one eye joe]

To your point of "Deteriorating Quality" in the marketplace I'm afraid you will have to provide more specific examples. I was speaking manufacturing or CNC'd parts/components to which it is quite the opposite and only getting better.[/QUOTE]
HAVE YOU PURCHASED A MAJOR HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCE RECENTLY ? ? ? I'M TALKING ABOUT A REFRIGERATOR, A STOVE, A WASHER OR DRIER, ETC. I HAVE A 50 YEAR OLD REFRIGERATOR, RUNNING IN MY GARAGE, THAT I TOOK FROM MY PARENTS GARAGE, AFTER THEY PASSED AWAY AND I SOLD THE PROPERTY. YOU ARE FORTUNATE TO GET 10-15 YEARS OUT OF A MODERN UNIT. IT'S THE SAME WITH ALL APPLIANCES. THEY DON'T LAST. WHY IS IT THAT HOT ROD ENGINE BUILDERS FAVOR FORGED CRANKSHAFTS OVER CAST CRANKS--MADE WITH MORE MODERN TECHNOLOGY ? ? ? MAYBE CRANKS CNC'D OUT OF BLOCKS OF STEEL IS BETTER THAN BOTH, IF THAT IS HOW THEY ARE MADE TODAY--I DUNNO………...

 

[Georgia1911]

Why have you called "troll"? The OP has stayed engaged in this tread, responding to replies...

Because he excluded all possible arguments except his own then asked for responses. This showed no desire for actual discussion. To wit, aesthetics are a perfectly valid product design criterion, yet he rejects that at the outset. Claims that the IL is only an aesthetic concern when it violates the concept of engineering elegance (unneeded complexity).

That he may have moderated his tone later does not change the trollish nature of the OP, especially given it was his first here.

 

[Triathloncoach]

Anyone want to straight up trade their 1963 corvette for a modern one?

Ps. I agree with the points Chris made. But life shouldn't always be viewed in such clinical terms.

 

[AveragEd]

Chris, I speak to you as a retired GM dealership service manager and minor league S&W collector. You are correct in your assertion that today's automated-assembly cars are better than ones from 40 years ago. Of course, with automation comes the very harsh truth that a defect in one exists in them all. I've been to assembly plants and witnessed that very thing.

But to the point of my post - one reason maintenance intervals for today's cars are so much longer is that in 1975, owner's manual service schedules changed from recommended intervals to maximum intervals in the interest of conserving oil for folks who drive their vehicle in excess of 35 miles each time. But if you read the "fine print," you'll find mention of "severe operating conditions," a description that almost no one assumes from its name to apply to their driving habits. In fact, it applies to most of us.

"Severe operating conditions" include stop-and-go driving, short trips (don't we all try to drive less these days to save fuel?), hilly terrain, dusty roads, pulling a trailer and a 30-degree swing in daily temperature. Here in central Pennsylvania, all but trailer towing can apply to all of us on most days and "by the book," that means we must use the schedule with shorter intervals.

Another reason for extended service intervals is a requirement that full-synthetic oils be used. Forty years ago, that product was produced by just a handful of refiners and due to its much higher cost back then, was not popular.

I'm not saying that today's cars are not better - in fact, they are. But I much prefer the older Smith & Wesson products from an aesthetics perspective and because of a respect and appreciation for the craftsmanship involved in making them. Don't we fawn over old cars for the same reasons? There's a reason why older S&Ws are selling for nearly the same money as new ones. It isn't just us olde pharts who are driving those prices up and I'll wager that in another 10 or so years, those guns will command even more money than the new ones.

Ed

 

[MAJPATT]

I'm not biased against new Smiths. In fact one of my favorite revolvers is a 627-5 PC. However, to say that the blued finish of today is in anyway superior to the pre-war guns or the guns of the late 50s/early 60s undermines your credibility.

You may think that finish doesn't matter or is nominal point but nice finishes and aesthetics have value. Otherwise, we might as well just by a GP100 and be done with it. The loss of quality bluing isn't just due to regulation, surface preparation is vital to a high quality finish. There is no automated shortcut to hand polishing by a master craftsman. If there were, why aren't we doing it?

If aesthetics have no value in your world, why are you buying a classic anyway? Why not a 629/627? That way you won't need to worry about refinishing them after you trash them.

 

[AveragEd]

Anyone want to straight up trade their 1963 corvette for a modern one?

I in fact, had an opportunity to do just that two months ago. In 1964, I bought a new Corvette convertible with fuel injection and several other valued options. It sat in a storage unit for the last 15 years with 13,000 miles on its odometer and with the fall show at the Carlisle Fairgrounds on the horizon, I received an offer from a Chevrolet dealer in North Carolina of any 2015 Corvette in trade for my old one.

Let's see, over the next 10 years, mine would do nothing but appreciate in value while that new one would do nothing but depreciate in value. Accordingly, I passed. I did sell it to a dealer from Ohio for what I thought to be an appropriate amount of cash.

Ed

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

I'm certainly not racing out to sell my summer toy in favor of something "new"... '78 K-10 from AZ that's been lifted a bit and had some other goodies and updates done to it. I don't mind putting wrench to it now and then, in fact, I kind of enjoy it for it's simplicity and wonderful lack of electronics and emissions control garbage. There isn't a thing on this truck that can go wrong that I would be too afraid to tackle myself.

But having said all that, I do appreciate the advances of the new technology at times.

I own both current and older S&W's. Love them all, but I must admit that I am a little partial to the older models..but purely for aesthetic reasons. Functionally, I don't see the current models as inferior to my older models.

 

[Rick_A]

No doubt more care was taken on some older models in regard to exterior finishing.

The main thing that's changed is the internets, where every complaint has an audience and often a choir.

Lemons get put out as they always have. Contact is via email instead of letter.

Several manufacturers have had minor issues to address with new models. That's fairly normal.

I have my favorite modern and classic N frames. Neither is perfect but I like them much the same. As far as performance they shoot the same, double action triggers are equally smooth, and single action pulls vary only by 1/2 lb. The new one carries up early and can be staged in double action. The older stages late and the break and lockup are almost instantaneous. Every mechanical device has its own character, despite attempts to the contrary.

I won't discriminate by age, MIM, lock, or due to P&R. It's tempting to trade the old 357 for a 3-1/2 or 4" eight shot modern Performance Center rendition.

 

[Cpo1944]

I was thinking just this morning how much I like my new model 25-15, and that I`ll probably never part with it. It is 6.5 inch with beautiful stocks and a mirror nickel finish, and straight barrel. I was think of how derogatory a so called expert was speaking of it and trashing it to the point of being rude at the last gun show.
I have mostly old pre loc S&W stuff and I like it a lot,however, I have seen some very poor examples of the new stuff - especially the twisted off center barrels, unfortunately I`ve seen several of them, and find no excuse for Smith to ship anything so flawed!
So I ask the OP if the machines are so good how did the cockeyed barrels get out of the shop?

 

[410bore]

Chris,

I do not own any of the newest 27 and 29 variants so lets just assume that the timing, lockup, and overall functionality of the new guns are equal to, or from what you are saying, superior.

Yes, with the new technologies such as CNC machining, there have been great advancements in manufacturing, no doubt about it. But, wouldn't you agree that these advancements are generally geared toward efficiency, cost effectiveness, and increased production?


You simply CAN NOT tell me, after looking at the gorgeous pre war revolver below, that is was not well made, and that the new models are superior; they are good guns but they don't hold a candle to the older guns assembled by hand. Just look at the sideplate fit on that gun.....HAND FITTED. These guns were made for the long haul, heck look at the picture again, its not from the 1930's, that's a recent picture and that gun still looks darn good; what will the current production guns look like after 75years? I guess we'll find out!

In today's world, there is not a lot of time for manual processes like hand fitting, the machines spit out the (to spec) parts and everything is assembled and functions like it should.

Back then the manufacturing processes that were used did not allow for the degree of mass production that we see today and those manual processes is where a lot of the quality comes from.

QUOTE]

 

[Kyle M.mi]

As a CNC machinist who's father is a programmer I see your point, and I agree that we have the technology and metallurgy to make things better now than even 10 years ago. But the company I work for and most companies I've seen are so concerned about production rates to get these $100,000 and up machines paid off that they don't necessarily care that much about quality, all they care about is getting product out the door and they figure that if they have to do some warranty work they've already saved enough money that it won't affect their profit. When you bought an S&W revolver in the past it was hand fitted and made by craftsmen of the highest skill. When I look at a new S&W or most other guns for that matter they just don't seem to bleed quality like those old guns do. It seems to me that most things if not everything made today is not made to last. When you bought a gun in the past it was built to last a lifetime or several because it was a tool that you quite possibly counted on for your livelihood. Not so today, even though people still count on their guns for the livelihood ie law enforcement, and military it seems the general consensus is that we make enough money now we can just buy another if ours breaks. I'd rather have a gun that last a lifetime than replace one every ten years because I wore it out. Working for a company who has CNC's right next to conventional machines I can tell you it takes a hell of a lot more skill to run those old machines than it does to run and program a CNC, I ran a conventional lathe for 4 years before I went to a CNC. Of course your also comparing apples to oranges because a conventional machine is all about physical movements, whereas CNC programming is more of a mental thing than physical skill. My work is ten times easier now but I'm not holding tolerances any tighter than those guys on the conventional machines, we all have to maintain tolerances of + or - .0005" on a regular basis. Me personally I'd rather have a gun where someone took pride in there work, something that was hand made, and hand fitted and assembled by someone with some skill, not some over paid button pusher.