Setting the record straight on New Classic S&W M27 & M29 (a futile attempt)...

[Cpo1944]

Chris,

I do not own any of the newest 27 and 29 variants so lets just assume that the timing, lockup, and overall functionality of the new guns are equal to, or from what you are saying, superior.

Yes, with the new technologies such as CNC machining, there have been great advancements in manufacturing, no doubt about it. But, wouldn't you agree that these advancements are generally geared toward efficiency, cost effectiveness, and increased production?


You simply CAN NOT tell me, after looking at the gorgeous pre war revolver below, that is was not well made, and that the new models are superior; they are good guns but they don't hold a candle to the older guns assembled by hand. Just look at the sideplate fit on that gun.....HAND FITTED. These guns were made for the long haul, heck look at the picture again, its not from the 1930's, that's a recent picture and that gun still looks darn good; what will the current production guns look like after 75years? I guess we'll find out!

In today's world, there is not a lot of time for manual processes like hand fitting, the machines spit out the (to spec) parts and everything is assembled and functions like it should.

Back then the manufacturing processes that were used did not allow for the degree of mass production that we see today and those manual processes is where a lot of the quality comes from.

QUOTE]

I totally agree with this but look at the side plate of my 25-15 It aint such a dog!

 

[Stephanie B]

One-eye, I have a stacked washer/dryer from the `80s. I burned out the drive be a couple of years back. The service guy told me to do whatever it takes to keep it running, because they don't make them like that anymore.

Nor do they make the parts anymore. Once the stock that's out there is gone..... planned obsolescence.....bah, humbug. Humbug, I say!

 

[BobC357]

I'm an engineer that grew up during the tube era, worked with what we call vintage audio gear today and am still working with the new stuff. The very best quality audio equipment was made during the mid to late '70s and early '80s. Why do I say this? Well, because it was. Take for example a Sansui 9090 or Pioneer SX-1010 or SX-1250. They put out raw clean power with both channels driven wide open and outputting pink noise (20-20KHz all at the same time). That's why they had massive transformers and filter caps. Today's modern gear with twice the rating can't do that. They measure power differently today than they used to. This is why a 100 Watt per Channel stereo (2CH) drew twice the amperage out of the wall than a 110 Watt per channel 5-channel unit does today.

So, when you say electronics are better today, you need to qualify that. Sure, they are cheaper to make, use smaller components, more high-tech ICs and such but, they don't sound better.

Same is true with the older guns. The metals were better. The workmanship was done more by hand than today's automation. So while today's may be "better" you need to establish by what criteria. Stainless steel is softer than carbon steel -- especially at room temperature. 12L14 leaded steel may be good for screws but not for the firing chamber.

To say that one is better, you need to establish a list of criteria and then supply the measurements or statistics for each. Just saying one is better is just opinion. As with the stereo model above, it is real. It is measurable. It is reproducible.

 

[chrisdobz]

I have personally stood in machine shops and manufacturing facilities and watched with amazement what CNC and automation can do. But I am always haunted by this gun company which is local and one with which I am familiar. The have the most advanced CNC and machine all parts from billet steel. But with all the advanced machinery the pistols ultimately are put together and hand fitted by good 'ole boys. They even show you a video of how each pistol is made. Nighthawk Custom Firearms specializing in quality handcrafted custom 1911 pistols If a machine could spit out a better pistol, they would use it, I promise.

To me it's like I heard Bobby Bowden say one time, "the game is not about "X's" and "O's," it's about your Jimmy's and Joe's."

I don't think we will ever machine or automate away the human touch.

Awesome point and quote! However, S&W along with just about every company could eliminate hand/manual labor that requires using humans but that will likely never happen for a lot of other socioeconomic reasons (taxes, etc).

OFF TOPIC....just a cool FYI - Just for giggles I can provide you with a look to the future using a company called Fanuc as my example. They make robots and CNC's and own 80% of the robot market and 60% of the CNC market. Their factories run 24/7 and actually operate in complete darkness. "Why and how is that possible you might ask"? Well here's the thing...their robots are literally producing/making their robots, winding motors and assembling their CNC machining centers. The various plants are monitored by a group of humans remotely for maintenance etc. but absolutely no human hands are used in the manufacture of their robots, motors or CNC's! To put the cherry on top Fanuc's quality control and warranty is so top notch that they dominate the market to the point that no one can even come close.

 

[Grayfox]

The comparision to cars is a false analogy. I was a mechanic for 42 years. I went from points and condensers to multiple electronic controls.
Yes, today's vehicles do run better, ride better and get far better gas mileage than the old ones. But, they also have to be worked on far more often. And more often than not, the reason they have to be worked on is usually directly related to the modern technology in them.
New technology ain't all its cracked up to be. Don't assume that because its new that its better.

 

[chrisdobz]

Awesome discussion everyone!!! I appreciate all the input and comments. My hope is that someone in the future considering buying a newer classic S&W stumbles onto this thread and understands that they shouldn't conclude that they are inferior to the older S&W's.

Cars have no point in this discussion so forgive me for mentioning it.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Iggy]

Another aspect that is seldom considered is that CNC and all of that modern stuff has contributed to the unemployment here in the U.S.

Everything is geared for profit. Forget the human factor in all of this.

That robot factory described in the post above creating robots in the dark is a prime example.
How many people were put out of work when that place went on line?

I'll take products made by people who eat, work, love, and live in the daylight than a soulless machine click-clacking away in total darkness and I'm willing to pay the difference too.

 

[Gunhacker]

Because he excluded all possible arguments except his own then asked for responses. This showed no desire for actual discussion. To wit, aesthetics are a perfectly valid product design criterion, yet he rejects that at the outset. Claims that the IL is only an aesthetic concern when it violates the concept of engineering elegance (unneeded complexity).

That he may have moderated his tone later does not change the trollish nature of the OP, especially given it was his first here.

With his recent reply saying "My hope is that someone in the future considering buying a newer classic S&W stumbles onto this thread and understands that they shouldn't conclude that they are in any form or fashion inferior to the older S&W's."

I have to agree with you... after all that's been said, making a statement like that using "any" is a trigger to fan the flames.

 

[Kyle M.mi]

Another aspect that is seldom considered is that CNC and all of that modern stuff has contributed to the unemployment here in the U.S.

Everything is geared for profit. Forget the human factor in all of this.

That robot factory described in the post above creating robots in the dark is a prime example.
How many people were put out of work when that place went on line?

Very good point some people picture this utopia in which everyone has unlimited free time because the robots are doing everything. Now if robots are doing all the work and no humans are doing any work, where are we getting the money to do all the things we want to do?

 

[chrisdobz]

Another aspect that is seldom considered is that CNC and all of that modern stuff has contributed to the unemployment here in the U.S.

Everything is geared for profit. Forget the human factor in all of this.

That robot factory described in the post above creating robots in the dark is a prime example.
How many people were put out of work when that place went on line?

Unfortunately that's the way of the world and is the inevitable future of mass manufacturing. However, technology and robots have a HUGE up front cost and only the largest of companies can afford to go that route. Manual labor is still far and away cheaper than automated manufacturing.

OFF TOPIC: Lets all be adults and be realistic here...robots are not contributing to unemployment. The lack of education in this country is the leading contributor to unemployment.

 

[chrisdobz]

Very good point some people picture this utopia in which everyone has unlimited free time because the robots are doing everything. Now if robots are doing all the work and no humans are doing any work, where are we getting the money to do all the things we want to do?

You answered your own question...if no one worked and robots produced everything money would have no meaning in society and no value.

 

[6518John]

Awesome point and quote! However, S&W along with just about every company could eliminate hand/manual labor that requires using humans but that will likely never happen for a lot of other socioeconomic reasons (taxes, etc).

OFF TOPIC....just a cool FYI - Just for giggles I can provide you with a look to the future using a company called Fanuc as my example. They make robots and CNC's and own 80% of the robot market and 60% of the CNC market. Their factories run 24/7 and actually operate in complete darkness. "Why and how is that possible you might ask"? Well here's the thing...their robots are literally producing/making their robots, winding motors and assembling their CNC machining centers. The various plants are monitored by a group of humans remotely for maintenance etc. but absolutely no human hands are used in the manufacture of their robots, motors or CNC's! To put the cherry on top Fanuc's quality control and warranty is so top notch that they dominate the market to the point that no one can even come close.

If you can get me some robots that can write briefs, go to court and take the place of my paralegals (to replace my paralegals, the robots will only need the ability to call in sick, do thier nails, and play on the internet) you will see an over-weight old man with a bad-back do a back-flip!

And Chris--welcome to the forum--I suspect you will be a tremendous asset. Remember kindness and consideration go a long way in life.

 

[chrisdobz]

If you can get me some robots that can write briefs, go to court and take the place of my paralegals (to replace my paralegals, the robots will only need the ability to call in sick, do thier nails, and play on the internet) you will see an over-weight old man with a bad-back do a back-flip!

And Chris--welcome to the forum--I suspect you will be a tremendous asset. Remember kindness and consideration go a long way in life.

Hahahaha, thank you! I look forward to future discussions if I think I could contribute. I don't get offended and love/respect any and all opinions/views of others.

 

[chrisdobz]

With his recent reply saying "My hope is that someone in the future considering buying a newer classic S&W stumbles onto this thread and understands that they shouldn't conclude that they are in any form or fashion inferior to the older S&W's."

I have to agree with you... after all that's been said, making a statement like that using "any" is a trigger to fan the flames.

Yea, I deleted that word.

 

[whataboutbob]

Simple...like what you like,buy what you like

 

[Iggy]

I think aesthetics has been one of the major points of this conversation.
Today vs. 81 years ago.

 

[Grayfox]

New vs Old = Production vs Precision.

 

[brownboss]

I'm an old guy(82 yrs) and I like old things, old women, old Scotch, old automobiles, and especially old guns (S&W Revolvers). A Smith & Wesson was elegant of design, pridefully constructed and cherished by those who owned them. It's true, they were tools, but so were my grandfather's carving chisels made fine German steel, or his set of dado-head planes. He took pride in having them, pride in using them and pride in what he made with them. I take pride in my old Smith&Wessons. Pride can't be programmed into a machine, it's in the the man and his product.

 

[chrisdobz]

I'm an old guy(82 yrs) and I like old things, old women, old Scotch, old automobiles, and especially old guns (S&W Revolvers). A Smith & Wesson was elegant of design, pridefully constructed and cherished by those who owned them. It's true, they were tools, but so were my grandfather's carving chisels made fine German steel, or his set of dado-head planes. He took pride in having them, pride in using them and pride in what he made with them. I take pride in my old Smith&Wessons. Pride can't be programmed into a machine, it's in the the man and his product.

I can program a machine and take pride in my abilities to do so and my programming allows me to make things that are more precise than most can imagine (1000th the thickness of a human hair). As a professional you take pride in your work. Please everyone don't assume because the "tools" used to produce the products are different and more modern that things are being built without the same pride of ole.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Rick_A]

2009 vs 1954

20140707_133632 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

20140707_133348 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

Best of their breeds, I think.

The 357 has an unpolished trigger guard, a metal "bugger" left in an inner frame corner, a minutely off square barrel cylinder gap, some polished sanding marks visible beneath the finish, and a very late lock up that had me concerned at first, but it is consistent on all charge holes and still in time.

The 22-4 has tight bores that make loading and extraction difficult after several cylinders, the side plate came proud on a corner and was sent back for fitment, the end of the barrel on the forcing cone end has a sharp raised lip on one side, and one area of the frame has a slight texture under the finish.

According to experts critical dimensions on the modern guns are better and more consistent than ever.

One reason for going new on the 45 was having the ability to shoot modern +p and +p+ loads without worry. While an original 1917 is something to behold in a well preserved example it's not something I'd want to use and abuse on the regular.

The original 27's and pre models are quite stout and are quite a bit better looking than new models. Using laser engraving to the topstrap on the new classics in lieu of cut checkering is quite tacky. The poorly fitted "super laminate" modern stocks only look good at a distance and don't hold a candle to the gorgeous and well fitted stocks of old.

I have yet to get any product I'd consider perfect. As far as firearms go my lowly 2012 production 442-1 is probably the most flawless firearm I've owned.