whataboutbob
Member
old = warm fuzzy,buttery,slippers and fireplace,old friends.new = cold,sharp,business suit and tie,tool.hard for me to put that in manufacturing terms. Bob
Setting the record straight on New Classic S&W M27 & M29 (a futile attempt)...
- Thread starter chrisdobz
- Start date
Cal44
Member
On the other hand, I was a kid in the 50's and my family had a cabin in Northern Arizona. In those days, the road was dirt for at least 60 of the 100 miles to the cabin.
We would have a flat tire almost every trip. My dad brought two spares to avoid getting stranded.
Now days you never have a flat unless you pick up a nail. And tires last a lot longer. Cheaper to manufacture? Probably, but longer lasting too.
In the 50's and 60's a car with 80,000 miles was old and few made it past 100,000 miles.
Modern cars are barely broken in at 80,000.
Plus they handle better, need less maintenance, and get better mileage. Much more comfortable also.
Computers, when I was a teenager were huge mainframes that required special AC and had some kind of maintenance issue almost every week.
Now laptops and tablets have more power than the biggest mainframe, cost 10,000 times less, and last for years with no problems.
Disk drives on those old 60's computers were always needing service.
Now typical 3.5" drives have Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) ratings of 500,000 hours up to 1 million hours. Plus they are way cheaper.
I prefer to live in the present than the past.
Dave
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Just saying "newer" doesn't mean longer lasting or better........only time will tell!
I too would rather live in the present than the past; and hopefully the future will be even better.......... but that said
Today things aren't made to last...... most things are considered disposable... most things can't even be repaired but must be replaced.
There are things that "some" are willing to pay a premium for and take pride in their ownership of... a set of Executioner's stag grips for a BBQ gun or a 1930s S&W Registered Magnum, new custom hand fitted 1911 (Wilson Combat) or even a old world style CZ (Mauser action) Mannlicher rifle...... some of which cost $150 others $3000-5000 or more.
In another thread I talked about my Father...... who carried his King customized 1938 , .357magnum Colt New Service well into the 1960s ( a Police Capt. can't carry a 6" Colt under his suit coat; but the gun was in his desk drawer if needed) and his 1946 Smith M&P until (and after) he retired in 1977....... it wasn't because there weren't better gun designed in the intervening 35 years.... but because those guns had become an extension of him.....the Colt was both his duty gun and his center fire target pistol (Dept. Pistol team).
At this stage in my life I've developed the same relationship with my; 1985 4" 686, 1988 Beretta 92 Compact, a 1989 3" Model 66 and my 3913NL from about 93 ( which replaced my earlier,first year 3913).
A new Smith auto or revolver; or even a Glock will work and get the job done......not knocking them; just don't see why I need them..... just because they're newer........
Edit: LOL a Glock has all the sex appeal of a Black & Decker....just another tool in the box!
I too would rather live in the present than the past; and hopefully the future will be even better.......... but that said
Today things aren't made to last...... most things are considered disposable... most things can't even be repaired but must be replaced.
There are things that "some" are willing to pay a premium for and take pride in their ownership of... a set of Executioner's stag grips for a BBQ gun or a 1930s S&W Registered Magnum, new custom hand fitted 1911 (Wilson Combat) or even a old world style CZ (Mauser action) Mannlicher rifle...... some of which cost $150 others $3000-5000 or more.
In another thread I talked about my Father...... who carried his King customized 1938 , .357magnum Colt New Service well into the 1960s ( a Police Capt. can't carry a 6" Colt under his suit coat; but the gun was in his desk drawer if needed) and his 1946 Smith M&P until (and after) he retired in 1977....... it wasn't because there weren't better gun designed in the intervening 35 years.... but because those guns had become an extension of him.....the Colt was both his duty gun and his center fire target pistol (Dept. Pistol team).
At this stage in my life I've developed the same relationship with my; 1985 4" 686, 1988 Beretta 92 Compact, a 1989 3" Model 66 and my 3913NL from about 93 ( which replaced my earlier,first year 3913).
A new Smith auto or revolver; or even a Glock will work and get the job done......not knocking them; just don't see why I need them..... just because they're newer........
Edit: LOL a Glock has all the sex appeal of a Black & Decker....just another tool in the box!
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Harkrader
Member
I just can't get into arguing whether an older gun was made better than a new one.
There are features of any of them that appeal to me, often for different reasons.
MUDDOCKTOR: I have a 27-8, an eight-shot 27 with a solid 4" barrel and beautiful finish. Side by side with my 27-4 I can discern no difference in performance or build quality, nor in how they shoot.
I like my old K-frames, 17 and 18 .22 revolvers better than my 617 because they are better balanced for me, and women and children I teach to shoot seem to handle them better. The 617 is as accurate as the older ones and has been more reliable (as in NO problems) than some.
My 29-2 is delightful to shoot, but it is a 629 that is more likely to be in my holster because I feel it is better suited to backpacking. However, the trail 44 I carry the most is a 329PD. It has all the things the purists seem to dislike AND it feels like a toy. Its finish is wretched, but I think of it as like military Parkerizing: Not pretty, but not 'sposed to be. It works fine and even with a Big Dot front sight and C&S Extreme Duty rear I can hit what I aim at.
I used to carry my 6" Anaconda a lot. I stopped mainly to lighten my trail weight, but still carry it day hiking. But, WOW, have they gone up ridiculously in price. Is it better than a 29-10? In terms of performance, no.
My 29-10 is indistinguishable in feel from my nearly identical 29-2. Both hit point of aim with the same accuracy. I can't really say the 29-2 has a better trigger feel.
Minute of pinpoint accuracy is wasted on me.
I have the 629, 29-8 and 625 Mountain guns and feel they give up nothing meaningful (to me) to older models.
I have a 386PD (when I can it steal back from one of our sons) and a 386NG. Two-piece barrel, IL, dreadful finish, MIM parts, and both shoot like champions. Seven rounds in a concealable revolver. I have a history of being very hard on guns, and while I am now retired, those guns give me no concern about marring or wear and tear.
I bought most of my guns some time ago at more realistic prices. I assert that I am NOT a museum, so everything has to be a shooter, including my gold-trimmed Lew Horton 29-10. I carry it in Wisconsin's cooler weather and it shows holster wear. I don't care. Still, I am alarmed at what some of those older guns would sell for today, so if I choose not to sell them then I feel I should limit carrying them. The 27-4 goes to the range, the 27-8 goes in the holster. And to the range. Same for the 386's vs my 1952 .357 Magnum.
I am glad there are people who appreciate and understand subtleties of beauty and craft. I don't want a Monet in my living room but I understand why they are in museums.
All this from a guy who drives a 1966 Volvo P1800. Go figure.
There are features of any of them that appeal to me, often for different reasons.
MUDDOCKTOR: I have a 27-8, an eight-shot 27 with a solid 4" barrel and beautiful finish. Side by side with my 27-4 I can discern no difference in performance or build quality, nor in how they shoot.
I like my old K-frames, 17 and 18 .22 revolvers better than my 617 because they are better balanced for me, and women and children I teach to shoot seem to handle them better. The 617 is as accurate as the older ones and has been more reliable (as in NO problems) than some.
My 29-2 is delightful to shoot, but it is a 629 that is more likely to be in my holster because I feel it is better suited to backpacking. However, the trail 44 I carry the most is a 329PD. It has all the things the purists seem to dislike AND it feels like a toy. Its finish is wretched, but I think of it as like military Parkerizing: Not pretty, but not 'sposed to be. It works fine and even with a Big Dot front sight and C&S Extreme Duty rear I can hit what I aim at.
I used to carry my 6" Anaconda a lot. I stopped mainly to lighten my trail weight, but still carry it day hiking. But, WOW, have they gone up ridiculously in price. Is it better than a 29-10? In terms of performance, no.
My 29-10 is indistinguishable in feel from my nearly identical 29-2. Both hit point of aim with the same accuracy. I can't really say the 29-2 has a better trigger feel.
Minute of pinpoint accuracy is wasted on me.
I have the 629, 29-8 and 625 Mountain guns and feel they give up nothing meaningful (to me) to older models.
I have a 386PD (when I can it steal back from one of our sons) and a 386NG. Two-piece barrel, IL, dreadful finish, MIM parts, and both shoot like champions. Seven rounds in a concealable revolver. I have a history of being very hard on guns, and while I am now retired, those guns give me no concern about marring or wear and tear.
I bought most of my guns some time ago at more realistic prices. I assert that I am NOT a museum, so everything has to be a shooter, including my gold-trimmed Lew Horton 29-10. I carry it in Wisconsin's cooler weather and it shows holster wear. I don't care. Still, I am alarmed at what some of those older guns would sell for today, so if I choose not to sell them then I feel I should limit carrying them. The 27-4 goes to the range, the 27-8 goes in the holster. And to the range. Same for the 386's vs my 1952 .357 Magnum.
I am glad there are people who appreciate and understand subtleties of beauty and craft. I don't want a Monet in my living room but I understand why they are in museums.
All this from a guy who drives a 1966 Volvo P1800. Go figure.
Cal44
Member
Compare a new Freedom Arms 83 with a Smith (old or new).
You can still get quality, but you have to pay for it.
I do agree with most new appliances are krap as far as reliability is concerned.
I wonder if some of the German brands like Bosch are significantly better. What the appliance industry needs is competition from a company that builds quality. People would be willing to pay somewhat more for quality appliances, IMO.
You can still get quality, but you have to pay for it.
I do agree with most new appliances are krap as far as reliability is concerned.
I wonder if some of the German brands like Bosch are significantly better. What the appliance industry needs is competition from a company that builds quality. People would be willing to pay somewhat more for quality appliances, IMO.
New Model 29-10 build and performance is amazing but what about the Bluing
I just purchased a brand new Model 29-10 and have been actively using it at the range. I have no complaints on its build quality and performance, it's an amazing experience. I am just a little thrown off by the bluing on mine in comparison to older models I have seen. I have taken the following images with very bright lights to show the bluing in as best detail as possible. What I question is the cloudy haze in areas rather than a deep high gloss uniform bluing. Is this the normal look of the new process in bluing, am I being over concerned on the bluing?
I just purchased a brand new Model 29-10 and have been actively using it at the range. I have no complaints on its build quality and performance, it's an amazing experience. I am just a little thrown off by the bluing on mine in comparison to older models I have seen. I have taken the following images with very bright lights to show the bluing in as best detail as possible. What I question is the cloudy haze in areas rather than a deep high gloss uniform bluing. Is this the normal look of the new process in bluing, am I being over concerned on the bluing?
Rick_A
Member
Another thing to consider is putting high round counts, daily carry use, and regular handling of a collectable and the associated wear/tear. This also raises the issue of possible breakages. There's plenty of stories of older guns going out of time, breaking trigger parts, and broken trigger pins. That's always a shame, and with a dwindling number of replacement parts and qualified personel to repair them, those ugly new guns start looking pretty good.
My P&R gun is a queen; used and carried on rare occasion and with kid gloves on. My new guns get ran hard and carried daily and that frankly gives them a utility the old one will never enjoy. The gun left at home is not doing much good sitting pretty.
If all your guns are safe queens and range plinkers it may not matter.
My P&R gun is a queen; used and carried on rare occasion and with kid gloves on. My new guns get ran hard and carried daily and that frankly gives them a utility the old one will never enjoy. The gun left at home is not doing much good sitting pretty.
If all your guns are safe queens and range plinkers it may not matter.
Scrateshooter
Member
Aight.
I bought a S&W 25-15 several months ago, why? I couldn't find a 6" 25-7 or 25-9 that wasn't $300 more than a new one. It's true the new one is one of the best mechanically I've bought and will be tough enough for stout loads, but its blueing isn't much to write home about.
I love the factory patridge sight, but how is the cheap roll pin holding it in better than a deep blued solid pin or better yet a hand finished blind pin.
Just yesterday I bought a shooter grade 24-3 4" for what a newer one would go for, why? If there was a new one available I'd buy it: I shoot these guns.
I have a 5" 27-2 and I'm certain it's not going to wear out sooner than a newer one.
I bought a S&W 25-15 several months ago, why? I couldn't find a 6" 25-7 or 25-9 that wasn't $300 more than a new one. It's true the new one is one of the best mechanically I've bought and will be tough enough for stout loads, but its blueing isn't much to write home about.
I love the factory patridge sight, but how is the cheap roll pin holding it in better than a deep blued solid pin or better yet a hand finished blind pin.
Just yesterday I bought a shooter grade 24-3 4" for what a newer one would go for, why? If there was a new one available I'd buy it: I shoot these guns.
I have a 5" 27-2 and I'm certain it's not going to wear out sooner than a newer one.
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firebyprolong
Member
Shoot them side by side and you'll know.
Perceived Value
Great thread, chrisdobz! I guess you knew what you were getting into before you stepped in it. My only comment to all of the above is that efficiency is not the final word - "perceived value" is, nonetheless, actual value.
Great thread, chrisdobz! I guess you knew what you were getting into before you stepped in it. My only comment to all of the above is that efficiency is not the final word - "perceived value" is, nonetheless, actual value.
kbm6893
Member
I just hate the looks of new S&W revolvers. I hate the black hammer, trigger, and cylinder release on a stainless gun. The new 66 might be an improvement over the original, but I think it looks awful. I hate the frame mounted firing pin. I just think the pin looks better in the hammer. I absolutely HATE the lock. Not so much the presence of it, but that S&W chose to deface their product by putting it on the side like that.
So the new revolvers might be a superior product from an engineering standpoint, but the old ones weren't really in need of those upgrades. The majority of us here will never wear out an older Smith, unless you're gonna shoot lots of magnums or +p ammo. Who here does that?
Nah. You can keep your "Classic" line of revolvers. Part of owning a gun is pride of ownership. I see none in the newer "improved" revolvers.
So the new revolvers might be a superior product from an engineering standpoint, but the old ones weren't really in need of those upgrades. The majority of us here will never wear out an older Smith, unless you're gonna shoot lots of magnums or +p ammo. Who here does that?
Nah. You can keep your "Classic" line of revolvers. Part of owning a gun is pride of ownership. I see none in the newer "improved" revolvers.
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Rick_A
Member
For me the pride of ownership is just the same.
Is one better than the other? Heck no. They have their merits. It is the final product that matters most in the end. I love the new Classics line. The 21-4 and 22-4 are my favorite modern N frames. The PC 27-8's are excellent pistols as well, and I wouldn't mind a nickel example.
Those of us with new guns shouldn't have to defend our purchases at every turn. That only happens here. In person people only comment how nice it is and most are fooled by the appearance thinking it a nice, vintage gun.
It's like every time one of us purchases a new gun the old dog camp gets a raw feeling like we are responsible for the demise of the old world manufacturing. Sorry to tell you folks but that ship has sailed. Them ugly, cold, soulless PC and new classics guns are as close as it gets.
I have nothing against folks purchasing only the vintage guns. Otherwise my 22-4 wouldn't have sat on a shelf for years and I may have missed it. People passed it over as a flashy overpriced gun. I saw it as a gorgeous reasonably priced shooter compared to the authentic item.
Don't hate us, man. It's not our fault.
I have shot them side by side and from my point of view they both work just the same. The targets don't much care which is making holes in it.
Is one better than the other? Heck no. They have their merits. It is the final product that matters most in the end. I love the new Classics line. The 21-4 and 22-4 are my favorite modern N frames. The PC 27-8's are excellent pistols as well, and I wouldn't mind a nickel example.
Those of us with new guns shouldn't have to defend our purchases at every turn. That only happens here. In person people only comment how nice it is and most are fooled by the appearance thinking it a nice, vintage gun.
It's like every time one of us purchases a new gun the old dog camp gets a raw feeling like we are responsible for the demise of the old world manufacturing. Sorry to tell you folks but that ship has sailed. Them ugly, cold, soulless PC and new classics guns are as close as it gets.
I have nothing against folks purchasing only the vintage guns. Otherwise my 22-4 wouldn't have sat on a shelf for years and I may have missed it. People passed it over as a flashy overpriced gun. I saw it as a gorgeous reasonably priced shooter compared to the authentic item.
Don't hate us, man. It's not our fault.
I have shot them side by side and from my point of view they both work just the same. The targets don't much care which is making holes in it.
Peak 53 makes a good point. I think the marketplace is telling us that both the newer and the older S&W's are quality products. The marketplace determines the value. Quality is one of the more important factors determining value. The fact that the newer S&W revolvers are valued somewhere near where many of their older counterparts are valued suggests the marketplace accepts the newer S&W's as a quality product with quality somewhere near on par with older S&W's. On the other hand the older S&W's have maintained their value and in many cases exceed the value of newer models based upon their quality, rarity, appearance, or uniqueness. I think this speaks volumes to the quality of both the newer and older S&W's.
John
Sad news to report....S&W has officially discontinued the Model 27 Classic as of 9/4/2014. There will be no more 27-9's produced in both the 6.5" and 4" variations. They also discontinued the S&W Model 29-10 4" barrel variant but the 6.5" will continue to be manufactured for now.
Until the 27-10 ever becomes a reality all the 27's have something in common. They are all a thing of the past.
Anyone, have actual production numbers on how many 27-9's were manufactured from 2008-2014? Just curious if they were limited due to lack of demand compared to when they were mass produced generations prior. Me personally I had never seen a "Classic" variant of the 27 or 29 in my local gun shop.
Cheers,
Chris
Until the 27-10 ever becomes a reality all the 27's have something in common. They are all a thing of the past.
Anyone, have actual production numbers on how many 27-9's were manufactured from 2008-2014? Just curious if they were limited due to lack of demand compared to when they were mass produced generations prior. Me personally I had never seen a "Classic" variant of the 27 or 29 in my local gun shop.
Cheers,
Chris
Quality, consistency and costumer service are the priority of S&W. Cost reduction is reduced in several other ways. Time=money so if they can save time then they save money using CNC's and save money with producing less parts that have to be rejected due to quality issues. I promise there is more to "cost" than just parts and materials. I do, however, see how the perception of saving money might drive people to think it's at the expense of quality.
Technology allows certain companies to produce a higher quality product for less "cost" than ever before. It's important to see the difference in "cost" vs "price" because total cost takes on a much larger scope than most realize especially if they have never worked in a plant as I have in my college days.
Why does a restored '57 Chevy sometimes sell for close to $100K at auction, when a brand new Chevy goes for way, way less?
The answer: CLASS.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
John
The answer: CLASS.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
John
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Any single one of those pics would have made your point! But so many of them???? My smile muscles are hurting!
Nice pics of some beautiful examples of S&W's finest.
Nice pics of some beautiful examples of S&W's finest.
That's a real shame. Sad to hear it.
Yea, that's strange...My 29-10 didn't have any type of haze like that. Take an pink school eraser (like the ones we used back in school) to it and see if it comes off. I get lead build up on the cylinder nearest to the forcing cone after about 500rds and have to use the eraser to scrub it off.
My S&W M29-10 photos...Notice I have lead buildup on both ends of the cylinder that I need to clean up from shooting hand loaded wadcutters that aren't the cleanest in the world. About 1300rds shot through it already and its only 3 months old.
Lovin' it! What a workhorse and enjoyable tool to shoot!
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