Setting the record straight on New Classic S&W M27 & M29 (a futile attempt)...

"Note: Although I think hammer mounted firing pins look cool that's all they are good for is looks (a handgun is really a tool at heart). No gun manufacturer will revert to hammer mounted firing pins due to safety issues of the cartridge firing if dropped. Although rare it happened from time to time."

If you look at the lock works of an S&W with the hammer mounted firing pin, you will see the lead pipe 100% certainty that even if you used the thumb piece to hammer nails with a loaded cylinder, it would NOT fire - no how!
 
"Note: Although I think hammer mounted firing pins look cool that's all they are good for is looks (a handgun is really a tool at heart). No gun manufacturer will revert to hammer mounted firing pins due to safety issues of the cartridge firing if dropped. Although rare it happened from time to time."

If you look at the lock works of an S&W with the hammer mounted firing pin, you will see the lead pipe 100% certainty that even if you used the thumb piece to hammer nails with a loaded cylinder, it would NOT fire - no how!

Yep, that's true. There are 2 different safeties built into them to keep that from happening on all post war Smiths. There used to be just one but there was an accidental discharge in Navy (?) service and they added the hammer block bar internally in addition to the old hammer block feature.
 
New is not universally better than old.

Comparing my dad's old 50s vintage M41 to my late 80s, the old one is better finished. Internal parts are better polished, sharp edges are rounded and polished, bluing is better.

My 60s vintage colt 1911 slide was polished and blued so that the flats are close to a mirror finish. No one does that today.

My 80s Winchester m70 is much better finished than my new SC manufactured m70.

That is mostly aesthetics. Functionally, I agree that my newer CNC produced 1911 is better put together than my older colt. My new m70 isn't any better than my old one though.

Technology hasn't been a benefit to everything. Parts can still be obtained for old pre-computerized cars. My 98 corvette has electronic components that are no longer available. The day will come when it will stop running.

Last winter, when it was -10 to -20 for several days, my dad's BMW x5 quit, we were told the computer crashed. My 97 Tahoe worked fine.

Overall cars are said to be more reliable now. I suppose that is true, although I think effort being done today is for emissions and efficiency, not reliability.

Of course, the big difference is the cost of labor. If a person can be replaced with a machine, you can get equal or better quality at a lower price, if the person running the machine is good.

Quality where labor can't be replaced with a machine has really suffered (final finishing). Or compare a 1930s house with a new one.
 
Yep, that's true. There are 2 different safeties built into them to keep that from happening on all post war Smiths. There used to be just one but there was an accidental discharge in Navy (?) service and they added the hammer block bar internally in addition to the old hammer block feature.

Good info! I figured there had to be more to the frame mounted firing pins since they were made that way up to 80's.
 
One point of disagreement. Modern CNC machines are more cost efficient, but are no more accurate than the machine tools of 50 years ago. CNC machining does not automatically assure closer tolerances. It may assure a company can remain competitive, but don't for a minute underestimate the skill level of our fathers and grandfathers. They did some outstanding work.
 
YES!!! Exactly true!!! More true than anyone even realizes.

Quick Point:
To say that we were better off without CNC using the naked eye is like saying cars built in the 70's were built better than they are today.

- How many cars from the 70's are on the road today?
- Whats the manufacturers recommend time between oil changes when you buy a new car these days?

Go ahead open the owners manual that came with your new car (my example 2014 Fusion) and watch your jaws drop.

Can't find it no worries - It's now 10,000 miles between oil changes! Yep 10K and that's the new standard these days. This isn't because oil is so much better than it was before because it isn't but because tolerances and manufacturing quality has increased using...yep, you guessed it high quality machining centers, CNC's and robots.

Actually the oil is better, the long oil change intervals are for synthetic/synthetic blends. No argument about the better tolerances, machining etc though.
 
In the thirty plus years I've been at this,Ive had the pleasure of owning many fine old revolvers.When and if I stumble into a large pile of disposable income, I plan to pick up a lot of the older guns I let go of.I will pay the premium for good condition older ones rather than buying any production models.The Smith & Wesson I rember is no longer here with us.
 
This is a worthwhile discussion, so I thank the OP for bringing it up.

I visited the S&W factory and watched the CNC machines in action - remarkable. As long as S&W sets the parameters correctly, and changes the cutting (grinding) heads when required, the result will be remarkable.

Consider the far greater reliability of the semi-automatic pistol today compared to yesteryear. Back in the day, roughly 1983-4, I had a Colt Series 70 Mark IV .45 automatic -- the classic civilian "1911." I also had a S&W Mdl 457 .45. Neither one would run worth a darn, regardless of the type of ammo I used. I also had an issue M1911A1 in roughly 1990-1995, and it didn't run worth a durn either, and the unit 'smiths were pretty good with .45s. Fast forward to my recent experiences with Sigs of all stripes and M&Ps, and today's pistols are just out-of-the-box better made.

Yet I recently bought a 442 Pro that suffered from a cylinder that was not relieved properly for the speed clip and had to be sent back. I could see the problem, and S&W took care of it for me nicely. But that should not have happened... I'm guessing the cutting machine didn't clear away metal from the center well enough because it was wearing down...

I agree with the argument that the way S&W puts guns together isn't always so hot. It is a tough business, and profits are tight, so maybe they cut corners a little bit. They need to pay attention to the CNC machines now that there is no such thing as "quality control" by the human eyeball on the process (lasers do the measuring and control the cutting heads). The actual products are pretty good... but with a little more investment could be fantastic. So new can be much better than old... but old, when it has stood the test of time, is awfully nice.

This captures what I am trying to say really well:
Quality where labor can't be replaced with a machine has really suffered (final finishing). Or compare a 1930s house with a new one.
 
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There is no inherent accuracy advantage in a piece of steel cut by a computer running a machine tool over a skilled human running a machine tool. It is either cut to tolerance or not. In my youth, I apprenticed under some of the old time tool and die makers. They did work that was remarkable. CNC does not automatically equate better quality in every situation. They are a tremendous leap forward in efficiency, but not quality of fit and finish in every situation. Do not underestimate the skill level of some of these old time craftsmen.
Then there is the issue of design changes over the years. Some are great, some not so much. In the case of S&W revolvers, there is room for legitimate debate. I am obliged to obey the rules of this forum, so I won't go into this subject any further.
 
Couple of things:
1. I was wrong to say the 27-9 is discontinued. Production stopped back in September but no word if that is for good or not.
2. I just checked my owners manual in my 2014 Ford Fusion (best American car ever!!!) and it doesn't specify synthetic but the change interval is up to 10,000 miles and is equipped with the smart oil indicator that will notify you when to change the oil. It is recommended that you change the oil within 500 miles of the indicator light coming on.

Not sure where this idea of oil being better came from....oil can be as expensive as you want but the car manufacturers don't care what oil you put in the car. It doesn't change the warranty. Same as S&W doesn't care what bullets you put through there new guns. They have a lifetime warranty.
 
Actually Chris, the oils of today, both conventional and synthetic, have to meet much more stringent requirements as far as temp stability and resistance to breakdown than oils of the 70's and even the 80's. I haven't looked in a car owner's manual in years, but last time I looked they give a minimum rating for the oil to have. As a matter of fact, I just went out to my car and pulled my owner's manual out just to prove the point. Looking in the maintenance section under oil, Mazda says I have to use an oil that rated API Service SL. Looking on a bottle of synthetic I bought today to do an oil change on my car, it has an API Service rating of SN. When I was young, I remember it being like SD. Those ratings increases between SD and SN have meant that they have modified the minimum specs of the oil. So yes, the oil is better. :D And you can run a higher rated oil in your car and stay under warranty but not one lower rated.

EDIT: And just to let you know that all old farts like me don't turn their noses up at the newer guns, I am looking at a 27-8 that has caught my eye. Lock, MIM parts and all. It looks beautiful and I want badly!:D
 
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Actually Chris, the oils of today, both conventional and synthetic, have to meet much more stringent requirements as far as temp stability and resistance to breakdown than oils of the 70's and even the 80's. I haven't looked in a car owner's manual in years, but last time I looked they give a minimum rating for the oil to have. As a matter of fact, I just went out to my car and pulled my owner's manual out just to prove the point. Looking in the maintenance section under oil, Mazda says I have to use an oil that rated API Service SL. Looking on a bottle of synthetic I bought today to do an oil change on my car, it has an API Service rating of SN. When I was young, I remember it being like SD. Those ratings increases between SD and SN have meant that they have modified the minimum specs of the oil. So yes, the oil is better. :D And you can run a higher rated oil in your car and stay under warranty but not one lower rated.

EDIT: And just to let you know that all old farts like me turn their noses up at the newer guns, I am looking at a 27-8 that has caught my eye. Lock, MIM parts and all. It looks beautiful and I want badly!:D

Let's all just agree to appreciate S&W for what it is...the best today and the best yesterday. Also, good info on the oil. I can't say that I'm knowledgable on that topic.

We are getting off topic... I can only speak for my personal vehicle but I swear there is no mention of oil rating...Google 2014 Ford Fusion Operating Manual. It doesn't call any of that oil specific information out but I'd have to assume that's due to it's sensor automated oil change system. It says the light will go on and it is recommended you change your oil within two weeks or 500 miles of the light going on. They call it the "Intelligent Oil-Life Monitor" system. My guess is the system as a whole will monitor and recommend oil changes based on certain engine information.
 
TIME FOR ME TO LEAVE THIS THREAD. I DOUBT THAT WE HAVE RESOLVED MUCH, BUT IT SURE HAS BEEN FUN………….
 
I have a love of old things, both for class, aesthetics, and also for function. Preferring function to everything else, I'll side with the newer is better in terms of manufacturing, but not always in every other term.

My favorite S&W is my 29-2 that I acquired almost unshot. Of all of my pistols, it is by far the smoothest trigger, and my finest handgun, and in top running of terms of quality of all my guns. I take great pride in the revolver, and comparing it to my other S&W's, I've drawn a few conclusions: The old bluing is nicer looking, but, in my experience, more apt to wear off and has had a few minor rust issues from being carried in the field and camping. The external hammer on my 29 and 10-8, in my opinion, can basically take the internal hammer, put its open mouth on the curb, and stomp its head in, with the older hammer/trigger being much smoother, and the newer one being good, but no where near as good as the old system. To be honest, when people here say "hold one of each, new and old, in both hands", they are right, there is something about the older pistols that feels "right".

That being said, I bought two N frames this year. Being a love of old things, and loving blue carbon steel, I first purchased a new in box old stock 22-4 1917. Why didn't I buy an old original? Because the quality of steel in the newer pistols is far, far, far stronger, besides getting a brand new gun all to myself. The fact that has been mentioned before in this thread, about being able to run hotter ammunition, played a very large role in the decision. No, I don't have an old collector's pistol, no I don't have a war time pistol, but I like the 1917, so I bought the best quality 1917 there is to have. Flat out, I admitted, when the choices were available, to purchase the new over old.

When I mulled over the 27, I thought long and hard. Loving my 29-2, and preferring the external hammer of it, and that of my 10-8 over my internal hammer 10-11, I thought very hard about buying a good old one. However, the factor of owning a brand new gun, all to myself, played a large role, I realized that my 1917 was a new made classic, worked very well, and that the terrible hammer I hated so much was probably worth the gains in newer manufacturing processes, and possibly better iron. Again, as a person who loves old things, I chose the newer version of the older gun.

Is the theory that manufacturers might send a poorly assembled weapon out of the factory over their own theories of cost effectiveness of better assembly vs. returned guns being worked on, I think I believe it in many cases. I bought a Thompson TM1, brand new from Auto Ordnance, and the gun was virtually unworkable out of the box. After sending it back, I looked into other Thompson owners and shooters, and found that it is the norm, not the exception. Auto Ordnance builds the guns with the original, worn out equipment, than simply assembles them, and throws them out the door. My guess being that they expect most people to buy them for show, to be "cool", that most will never be fired, but instead put on walls and in gun cabinets, and that it was cheaper to assemble them poorly, and reasoned that it was cheaper to have the in house gunsmiths only work on the rifles from the handful of customers who actually wanted a working gun. Of course, after their smiths worked on it, it runs like a clock. But the experience taught me something.

As far as cars go, I drive a 79 Mark V Continental. Are newer cars more reliable? Yes. Do they ride nearly as nice as my old boat? Absolutely, positively, without a question, no way at all. Are new cars as tough, or as cheap to fix? No. Is my old car more aesthetically pleasing? Hard to find people that would disagree with that subjective statement. Is it classier? Well, let's not even put that up to debate. If they made a fuel injected, higher quality, brand new version of the old boats, I would actually considering buying a new car, because I prefer the better quality product. Problem is, they don't. Are newer cars better? They may be of better manufacturing quality, but they sure as hell don't make them like they used to.

Long story short, I wear wool jackets and old clothes, both because they look nicer, and are warmer and thinner than new synthetic and cheap cotton. I shoot carbon steel, blue iron S&W's, both because I like a very heavy pistol for shooting, and they look nice. I bought a Tommy gun, both because it is a great looking conversation piece, but also because it is a very solid, very heavy .45 carbine for plinking and small game. I drive an old Lincoln, not just because I like the old style, but because they don't make a car that even comes close to the ride quality of those older cars. In short, I like old things, not because they are old, but because they are old school. I won't criticize the methods to make them better, I just hope they don't lose sight of where the older things had their qualities and purpose.
 
There is no inherent accuracy advantage in a piece of steel cut by a computer running a machine tool over a skilled human running a machine tool. It is either cut to tolerance or not. In my youth, I apprenticed under some of the old time tool and die makers. They did work that was remarkable. CNC does not automatically equate better quality in every situation. They are a tremendous leap forward in efficiency, but not quality of fit and finish in every situation. Do not underestimate the skill level of some of these old time craftsmen.
Then there is the issue of design changes over the years. Some are great, some not so much. In the case of S&W revolvers, there is room for legitimate debate. I am obliged to obey the rules of this forum, so I won't go into this subject any further.

I dont "quite" agree here, I will try to explain without writing a dissertation on machine tools. ( I deleted a very long winded post on machine design)

Tool rooms can and do produce tighter tolerance than production. The machines were better, the top people were in the tool room. Years ago toolroom tolerance was .0002 and production was .002 or more ( just generalities here). If production needed better tolerance they went to be ground.

CNC and modern machine design (tooling too)has closed some of the gap between toolroom tolerance and production tolerance.

Now I get my soap box out...

I laugh at most people who claim to hold in the .0002 range. Why, this is a very tight size, you need a temperature and climate stabilized shop and metrology area to measure it. You need real equipment to measure it and be true. Hold the part in your hand, hold the measuring tool, you're putting heat into the part or measuring device. The tighter the tolerance the more important this becomes. Also just because a machine can produce and repeat a tight tolerance does not insure parts come out dead on. The workpiece, machine tool, coolant all can change temperature this can have an influence on size. Never mind the cutter, the tool holder, spindle etc having any run out or deviation.

This is why I laugh at people who pull a warm part out of a machine then a micrometer out of their apron, hold the part while measuring them and say perfect with in .0001 :rolleyes:

Calling for tolerances tighter than needed drives up the cost of parts.

A well designed item will allow stacking tolerances and try to use them as an advantage when possible.

If I haven't put you to sleep, congratulations :D
 
The same debate has occurred when it comes to guitars and bass guitars. Every vintage Fender bass I ever picked up played well but certainly not for the money. The new American made models I've played and owned did not cost as much, played just as well and had sturdier necks...all my opinion/perception but similar argument to new vs old S&W guns.
 
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A good analogy! There was a time back when CBS owned the company when players complained about the quality and aesthetics of the then "new" Fender guitars. Pre CBS equaled good and the conversations between Fender lovers sounded a lot like what's going on here. Then, new management took over and changed everything. They are totally in tune with their customer's wishes. Even if you prefer guitars from the past, they have a range of "vintage reissues" for you. Exact copies of their guitars from the 50s and 60s down to the smallest detail. Including the old fashioned lacquer finishes. Sure, collectors pay huge prices for original Fenders, but nobody is complaining about Fender guitars anymore. Why should they? They do their best to satisfy all their customers. It's the exact opposite of the stop whining and take what we give you attitude at S&W.
 
Great post - I love the discussions! I especially like the funnier replies such as the one camparing a GP100 to a '70s S&W... got a good laugh out of that one. Funny guy.
Agree with your premise (assuming, as one said, that S&W uses the latest copmputer technology and the best in metallurgy) that new manufacturing and materials are far better than years gone by. Especially for factory or mass produced items. I have been shooting S&Ws for about 55 years and, though I will jump on an original classic like a duck on a june bug, I do appreciate the quaity of the current models. Not a fan of the lock, but haven't had trouble with it. I have five model 29s (including my pre-29 made in early 1957). I have only two model 27s - a pre-model 27 (registered) made in 1936 and a 27-2 but am seriously considering buying a model 27 classic reissue. I still prefer the old bluing and the increased time S&W spent on buffing before bluing but my latest model 29 (the classic reissue) shoots extremely well. I don't care for the thinner grips but that's just me. As for "not making them like they used to," I will end with a quote from one of the Martin guitar employees. I have been playing guitar for over 45 years and have seen these old Martins increase in price tens of thousands of dollars. Everyone wants an old, pre-war, Martin. As the aforementioned employee stated, "No, we don't make them like we used to. And we never did."
 
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