Shield 45 FTF

[dwhite]

I generally enjoy my Shield 45. It's incredibly accurate, modest recoil for its size, and fun to shoot.

But I've started having failures to feed. Specifically failures to strip a round from the magazine. It doesn't jam nor does the slide lock back -- it simply leaves the chamber empty.

I've already tried lightly polishing the feed ramp and cleaning the insides of the magazine thoroughly; but I still get FTF's about 5% of the time. It happens with both the 6 and 7 round magazines. Also doesn't seem to matter what ammo type I'm using.

I'd be happy to hear any thoughts. Maybe I need new magazine springs??? (this is a fairly low round-count gun though).

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

 

[Fastbolt]

... It doesn't jam nor does the slide lock back -- it simply leaves the chamber empty. ...

Are you saying the slide goes home (into battery), but the chamber is left empty?

A feeding issue involving a feeding stoppage is one thing, but having the slide cycle and ending up with an empty chamber would seem to be more magazine related, or the magazine not being properly seated for a round to be stripped from it.

When this occurs, have you checked to see if the magazine has been slightly unseated? Are you RH, and could your thumb have inadvertently bumped the mag catch button, allowing the mag to slightly drop below where the pickup rail could reach the next round in the mag? I've seen this happen from time to time with folks shooting other pistols, and they didn't realize what had happened because the mag hadn't dropped out of the gun ... and their first step of a reactionary drill was to Tap the mag upward, and didn't realize it had become loose. (BTW, there's a reason the first step of Tap-Rack-Assess is to make sure the mag is fully seated. )

Just some preliminary thoughts.

The usual things to examine for failures-to-feed are:
-Magazine not properly seated in frame
-sticky mag follower
-bent mag lips
-underpowered (light) loads
-weak recoil spring
-tight extractor

You've cleaned out the magazines (leaving them dry, without lube?) and presumably not found anything noticeably wrong with the springs and followers. Are they the latest follower revision? (Pics are available elsewhere in other threads. I don't have any pics.)

Are the mags fully and firmly seated? Since it's not limited to just one mag, I'd wonder about the mag catch not consistently holding the mags in position for the top round to be stripped from the feed lips?

Not dropped the mags onto a hard surface on the feed lips, right?

You might call S&W and explain your problem, asking for new mag springs and followers, and then see if that resolves your issue.

 

[dwhite]

Thanks for the great feedback Fastbolt. Very thorough!

Yes, the slide goes completely into battery but the chamber is empty.

Prior to today's range session, I just finished thoroughly cleaning the magazines and followers inside and out (but made sure they're dry). The magazine is locked in place and simply racking the slide after a failure easily loads the cartridge. (p.s. that 7 round mag is a bear to put back together after cleaning!!!).

However, I have not checked for damage to the magazines or magazine catch that might cause the mag to be slightly loose. I'll check into that.

Ammo is mostly (but not exclusively) 230 grain hardball loaded to standard pressure (mostly my handloads). I hadn't thought about the recoil spring. Again, this is a low round-count gun; but that could possibly still be a cause.

Thanks for some ideas to follow up on.

 

[ken158]

The slide must go back far enough to pick up a new round - if it does not "apparently" then your ammo is under powered or your spring is shoot. Reloads may be slow or early to peak pressure which may cause slide to not go back far enough.

 

[Fastbolt]

...
Yes, the slide goes completely into battery but the chamber is empty.

Prior to today's range session, I just finished thoroughly cleaning the magazines and followers inside and out (but made sure they're dry). The magazine is locked in place and simply racking the slide after a failure easily loads the cartridge. ...

Did this "problem" occur before you just disassembled and cleaned the magazines?

This may sound like a dumb question, but don't take it personally ...

Did you separate the followers from the springs during your cleaning practice?

If so, did you reinstall the followers in the correct orientation to the spring? The coil winding facing "front" ought to be higher than the other end facing the "rear". (Don't laugh, as I've seen it sometimes done by folks, inadvertently, because they didn't pay attention while disassembling and reassembling their magazines.)

Also, did you insert the assembled springs/followers so the front of the follower (highest point) faced the front of the mag? (Again, I've seen this done a couple times by our folks.)

One way to check for weakening mag springs and/or damaged followers is to take the EMPTY gun, and the EMPTY slides ... and then inserting the EMPTY mags, one at a time, in the EMPTY pistol (with the slide closed in battery) ... and then manually retracting the slide as fast as possible, fully to the rear, and check to see if the slide locks open each time (do it a couple times with each mag).

If the slide isn't locked back by the follower of the empty mag, that may mean something about the spring or follower isn't allowing the follower to properly engage with the slide stop lever's tab to catch and lock the slide back (on an EMPTY mag). Usually indicates mag spring that's becoming weakened, or a damaged follower.

It's a lot easier to diagnose weird problems (as an armorer) by being able to watch the shooter when it happens. A lot of "gun" problems often turn out to be "shooter induced" problems. Might be something the shooter did to the gun/mags during field-stripping and cleaning, or it might be something done during handling and manipulation during live-fire.

If your problem with experiencing an occasional empty chamber during live-fire (not just loading the chamber to begin shooting, right?) happened after you disassembled, cleaned and reassembled the magazines ... I'd wonder whether the mags were reassembled properly (springs and/or followers not reassembled or installed properly).

FWIW, I've watched the shooter have their thumb (either thumb) unintentionally engage the mag catch during the moment when recoil caused the gun to lift, which caused their tightening thumb to "find" the mag catch. They all swore it wasn't happening, but I was able to see it happen as they shot the guns. Managing recoil and being distracted by muzzle blast can divert attention.

 

[mckenney99]

This sounds like the slide is short stroking, not cycling back far enough to pick up the next round in the magazine.
Does the pistol do this with factory 230gr ball ammo?
Does it do it with any other factory ammo or just your reloads? Not a criticism of your reloads, but the 45 Shield does have a pretty stout recoil spring when new and requires full power loads to cycle completely until broken in.
Have you had someone else with auto loader experience shoot the gun to see if it could be shooter induced, maybe slight limp wristing, it doesn't take much?

 

[Fastbolt]

...
Does the pistol do this with factory 230gr ball ammo?
Does it do it with any other factory ammo or just your reloads? ...

Worth repeating.

I'd hoped mentioning the "Underpowered (light) loads" in the probable cause list might be subtle enough, but handloaders can sometimes overlook the obvious.

While we stopped using remanufactured ammo a little while after we transitioned from revolvers to pistols, I still saw it become a problem when I was helping teach private citizen classes for many years. I always heard some variation on a theme, like, "But my handloads have never done this before", or, "My friend's handloads have never caused this problem before!"

I saw many more problems, and out of a much smaller sampling of shooters (meaning private versus LE), experienced with handloads than I ever saw caused by QC issues with factory loads.

Underpowered or overpowered handloads can result in some frustrating "gun problems" at times.

Attempts to assess whether a gun or ammo problem is occurring is best done by using good quality, major American ammo maker factory ammo. A baseline of normal functioning is more easily achieved with good factory ammo, to help eliminate the ammo as being involved.

 

[thesyguy]

I had this same issue with my .45 Shield. I changed the magazine springs with these and the problem went away entirely.

https://www.gunsprings.com/SMITH & WESSON/M&P SHIELD SERIES/cID1/mID58/dID440

 

[sandog]

Keeping the inside of the mag bodies free of oil is a good thing, but it doesn't hurt, and may help, to use a dry lube like Rem-Dri.
I use it on the inside all my box mags, and on the inside of tubular magazines on my lever actions.
And I'd check to make sure that there are no burrs inside the mag body that would impede a smooth moving follower.

Do your mags all have the updated followers ? I was getting a round that failed to rise up enough for the slide to pick up, but the issue seemed to be only prevalent with Speer Gold Dots.
The new followers have a notch in the front right corner, as seen by the arrow.
If you need the new followers, call S&W and they will send you some free of charge.

 

[dwhite]

Wow! Lot's of great ideas. I'm going to look into a bunch of these. With the current ammo shortage and my workload, range time is more limited than it used to be. Thanks -- I'll update this thread as appropriate and let you know what I found.

 

[Longone]

Does this failure to load happen on the second or third round from a full magazine? Or is it completely random? What powder and load are you using?