Shield plus fan

[seabright60]

Im a revolver guy , a big fan of j frames for edc, I have to say tho that the shield plus has been carried more and more over the past two years as I become unable to find a flaw at all in its performance at the range, with to 10 round mag its almost as small as my m and p 340, I still carry the 340 more but this shield plus is getting more and more time in my pocket carry rotation. Accurate,reliable, easy to carry . I just dont like 9mm anywhere near as much as 357 magnum for peace of mind. I feel like power is more important than follow up shows as a civilian man of 65 and limited tactical ability body movement wise.

 

[Beju]

I just dont like 9mm anywhere near as much as 357 magnum for peace of mind. I feel like power is more important than follow up shows as a civilian man of 65 and limited tactical ability body movement wise.

The thing about that is with J-frame length barrels, a lot of .357 Magnum loads are only traveling at short barrel 9mm +P velocities, and sometimes not even that. They don't necessarily get you any more expansion and/or penetration than 9mm JHP.

Now, if you step up to 3"+ barrels, there may be more of an argument for putting up with the lower capacity and extra recoil (or pistol weight, if it leads you to bigger steel frames) of .357 Magnum.

 

[anoblefox]

The Shield Plus for me is the perfect carry gun. I have held the 365 and it is just too small for my hand, and I wear a size large glove. I can shoot better with it than any of my other carry guns on my permit, even though a couple of them are full sized. In Calif, I am magazine capacity limited to 10 rounds, however in my case I feel that is enough based on where I travel, as seldom as I leave my property. It works for me. I chose the 9 over the 45 purely for cartridge economics; it allows me to shoot many more rounds, more often. Practice, practice makes you a better shooter and develops muscle memory. You have to go with what works for you, everyone is different, and I am not suggesting your way is wrong if you disagree.

 

[seabright60]

The Shield Plus for me is the perfect carry gun. I have held the 365 and it is just too small for my hand, and I wear a size large glove. I can shoot better with it than any of my other carry guns on my permit, even though a couple of them are full sized. In Calif, I am magazine capacity limited to 10 rounds, however in my case I feel that is enough based on where I travel, as seldom as I leave my property. It works for me. I chose the 9 over the 45 purely for cartridge economics; it allows me to shoot many more rounds, more often. Practice, practice makes you a better shooter and develops muscle memory. You have to go with what works for you, everyone is different, and I am not suggesting your way is wrong if you disagree.

The thing about that is with J-frame length barrels, a lot of .357 Magnum loads are only traveling at short barrel 9mm +P velocities, and sometimes not even that. They don't necessarily get you any more expansion and/or penetration than 9mm JHP.

Now, if you step up to 3"+ barrels, there may be more of an argument for putting up with the lower capacity and extra recoil (or pistol weight, if it leads you to bigger steel frames) of .357 Magnum.

Ive seen the ballistics and even though you lose power its still alot more powerful with a full sized load but they make short barrel specific rounds now. Speer 135 grain short barrel jhp is designed specifically for these reasons. I use those in my m and p 340 or in my 327 pc if im in a populated area , in my 686 I carry 180 grain hard cast monsters and bring that whan walking my dog near gator infested ponds which are damn near everywhere in florida. But your basic premise doesnt hold up even in a short barrel. Its been proven.

 

[seabright60]

The Shield Plus for me is the perfect carry gun. I have held the 365 and it is just too small for my hand, and I wear a size large glove. I can shoot better with it than any of my other carry guns on my permit, even though a couple of them are full sized. In Calif, I am magazine capacity limited to 10 rounds, however in my case I feel that is enough based on where I travel, as seldom as I leave my property. It works for me. I chose the 9 over the 45 purely for cartridge economics; it allows me to shoot many more rounds, more often. Practice, practice makes you a better shooter and develops muscle memory. You have to go with what works for you, everyone is different, and I am not suggesting your way is wrong if you disagree.

Everything you said i agree with , I shoot the shield plus better than full sized semi autos also , I still lean heavily towards revolvers. I shoot revolvers better because of that muscle memory you talk about. Just like I feel much much more in control of a vehicle if its a stick shift with a clutch pedal lol. I just prefer the power over the capacity especially as I age, I cant move ,squat ,roll , hide,sprint ,jump ,stop on a dime get off 5 rounds change position etc anymore and out maneuver a younger assailant, those days are gone, its point and shoot, if im on my couch watching TV and 2 guys kick my door in and they are 20 something year old I want to reach for my 357 magnum with 8 rounds ,take them out, pick up my cell phone and call the cops without getting up. He'll I won't even have to get up to let the cops in because the door will still be open lol

 

[Beju]

Ive seen the ballistics and even though you lose power its still alot more powerful with a full sized load but they make short barrel specific rounds now. Speer 135 grain short barrel jhp is designed specifically for these reasons. I use those in my m and p 340 or in my 327 pc if im in a populated area , in my 686 I carry 180 grain hard cast monsters and bring that whan walking my dog near gator infested ponds which are damn near everywhere in florida. But your basic premise doesnt hold up even in a short barrel. Its been proven.

You may be misremembering the ballistics of the 135 gr short barrel 357 load. It's rated for 990 fps from a 2" test barrel. That may be a bit pessimistic. The one test I saw with a 1.875" J-frame, it averaged ~1010 fps, while in some slightly longer barrels like a 2.0" Taurus 605 and 2.25" Ruger SP101, it got over 1100. 0.125" may not sound like much, but that's 6% more barrel. That Ruger is 20% more barrel.

From my father's and my experience chronographing LCR and UC J-frames
examples in both .32 H&R and .38 Special, the S&Ws were a little bit slower. That disappointed me since I prefer the J-frame triggers and sights and shoot them better.

From the tests I've seen of 3.1" barrels, standard pressure 9mm 124 gr HST will do a good 1050 fps, and +P will easily exceed 1100 fps.

If a 1.875" J-frame is going to have an advantage over a short barrel 9mm for 2 legged predators, it's probably with rounds known for deep penetration like Hornady XTP, or some of the harder 158 gr LSWCHP that don't expand big, but will have little trouble getting enough penetration depth even from angles.

Wilderness defense is a different story; I've got no argument against the efficacy of launching big heavy flat meplat bullets.

 

[gila_dog]

What I like about my Shield Plus:
- Absolutely reliable. Never a jam or failure to fire.
- Feels good in my hand, points naturally.
- Hides easily with an IWB holster under a T shirt.
- 11 rounds (using the 10 round mag) is a lot better than the 5 or 6 a revolver holds.
- Recoil ain't bad.
- Nice trigger.
- Easy to field strip and clean.
- The finish seems indestructible.

 

[notyou]

The shield plus 9mm with the 15rnd mag is perfect in my hand. It shoots great, & hides easy.

 

[seabright60]

You may be misremembering the ballistics of the 135 gr short barrel 357 load. It's rated for 990 fps from a 2" test barrel. That may be a bit pessimistic. The one test I saw with a 1.875" J-frame, it averaged ~1010 fps, while in some slightly longer barrels like a 2.0" Taurus 605 and 2.25" Ruger SP101, it got over 1100. 0.125" may not sound like much, but that's 6% more barrel. That Ruger is 20% more barrel.

From my father's and my experience chronographing LCR and UC J-frames
examples in both .32 H&R and .38 Special, the S&Ws were a little bit slower. That disappointed me since I prefer the J-frame triggers and sights and shoot them better.

From the tests I've seen of 3.1" barrels, standard pressure 9mm 124 gr HST will do a good 1050 fps, and +P will easily exceed 1100 fps.

If a 1.875" J-frame is going to have an advantage over a short barrel 9mm for 2 legged predators, it's probably with rounds known for deep penetration like Hornady XTP, or some of the harder 158 gr LSWCHP that don't expand big, but will have little trouble getting enough penetration depth even from angles.

Wilderness defense is a different story; I've got no argument against the efficacy of launching big heavy flat meplat bullets. .....idk man , every test i look up says the 357 magnum even out of a shorter barrel is more powerful and expands more even if its moving slower ,the plus p 9 can close the gap if its shot out of a longer barrel but still doesnt "win" when its apples to apples barrel length wise its a blow out for the 357 magnum. Written test results or videos all say the same.it loses power but still wins.

 

[Beju]

Apples to apples barrel and chamber length with a 1.9" J-frame would be a 3.5" 9mm like an M&P 1.0 9C.

And, wouldn't you know it, you can compare how a whole bunch of .357 loads did in velocity and Clear Gel tests from a 2" K6S and a 4" GP100 to how some 9mm loads from an M&P9C! Lucky Gunner did the work. The 357 rounds that were very close to matching the performance of 9mm HST 124, 124 +P, or 147 +P, from a short barrel were 125 gr Golden Sabre and the non-short barrel Barnes 140 gr XPB. Most others either didn't expand as big, or if they did, they didn't penetrate as deep.

Also, I just chronographed some 10 shot strings from my 3.1" Shield Plus today using an Athlon radar chronograph.

Averages:
Federal HST 124 gr: 1084 fps, 324 ft-lbs
Federal HST 124gr +P: 1130 fps, 352 ft-lbs
Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P: 1105 fps, 336 ft-lbs

Going by Speer's 2" test barrel data, Gold Dot 135 gr Short barrel is good for 990 fps and 294 lb-ft, making it less powerful than any of the 9mm JHP I chronographed.

Lucky Gunner exceeded Speer's rated velocity with 1069 fps from Speer .357 135 gr Short Barrel, making for 343 ft-lbs, which is still less energy than HST 124 +P made from my Shield Plus.

However, I would not necessarily consider that representative of a J-frame with 6% less barrel (not counting chamber). With Winchester Ranger Bonded 38 Special130 gr +P, my 442UC averaged 887 fps to the 904 fps that my LCP averaged. This surprised me, as my 4 S&W .38 Special revolvers (10-6, 64-7, 442UC, 642UC) are less amenable to out of spec reloads than my .38 Special LCR is, suggesting tighter chambers in the S&Ws, but I haven't shelled out for pin gauges to make sure.

Now, if you want to talk about 'one shot stop' lore, Darryl Bolke has said that when California looked in to it, those 'one shot stops' tended to be at close range, at night, and from 4" or shorter barrels, suggesting a flash bang like psychological effect from the muzzle blast.

My conjecture is also that .357 Magnums were more likely to be used by agencies with higher shooting standards, and compared to municipal agencies with lower shooting standards. Many of them were still using .38 Special 158 gr LRN before the 158 gr +P LSWCHP 'FBI load' caught on in the 1970s.

 

[seabright60]

Apples to apples barrel and chamber length with a 1.9" J-frame would be a 3.5" 9mm like an M&P 1.0 9C.

And, wouldn't you know it, you can compare how a whole bunch of .357 loads did in velocity and Clear Gel tests from a 2" K6S and a 4" GP100 to how some 9mm loads from an M&P9C! Lucky Gunner did the work. The 357 rounds that were very close to matching the performance of 9mm HST 124, 124 +P, or 147 +P, from a short barrel were 125 gr Golden Sabre and the non-short barrel Barnes 140 gr XPB. Most others either didn't expand as big, or if they did, they didn't penetrate as deep.

Also, I just chronographed some 10 shot strings from my 3.1" Shield Plus today using an Athlon radar chronograph.

Averages:
Federal HST 124 gr: 1084 fps, 324 ft-lbs
Federal HST 124gr +P: 1130 fps, 352 ft-lbs
Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P: 1105 fps, 336 ft-lbs

Going by Speer's 2" test barrel data, Gold Dot 135 gr Short barrel is good for 990 fps and 294 lb-ft, making it less powerful than any of the 9mm JHP I chronographed.

Lucky Gunner exceeded Speer's rated velocity with 1069 fps from Speer .357 135 gr Short Barrel, making for 343 ft-lbs, which is still less energy than HST 124 +P made from my Shield Plus.

However, I would not necessarily consider that representative of a J-frame with 6% less barrel (not counting chamber). With Winchester Ranger Bonded 38 Special130 gr +P, my 442UC averaged 887 fps to the 904 fps that my LCP averaged. This surprised me, as my 4 S&W .38 Special revolvers (10-6, 64-7, 442UC, 642UC) are less amenable to out of spec reloads than my .38 Special LCR is, suggesting tighter chambers in the S&Ws, but I haven't shelled out for pin gauges to make sure.

Now, if you want to talk about 'one shot stop' lore, Darryl Bolke has said that when California looked in to it, those 'one shot stops' tended to be at close range, at night, and from 4" or shorter barrels, suggesting a flash bang like psychological effect from the muzzle blast.

My conjecture is also that .357 Magnums were more likely to be used by agencies with higher shooting standards, and compared to municipal agencies with lower shooting standards. Many of them were still using .38 Special 158 gr LRN before the 158 gr +P LSWCHP 'FBI load' caught on in the 1970s.

Nice ,I read the thing but did not see 357 magnum in lucky gunner study. I go by what I shoot best, what my eyes have been reading and hearing for years like ive never heard someone get shot 15 times with a 357 magnum or a 44 and survive like with 9mm. The odds of me being in a civilian self defense situation with the 3-3-3 rule, other studies that refute what your saying. I mean i guess its nuanced and individual choice. I still look at it like id rather have 8 357 magnum rounds than 15 9mm on me.

 

[Beju]

Nice ,I read the thing but did not see 357 magnum in lucky gunner study. I go by what I shoot best, what my eyes have been reading and hearing for years like ive never heard someone get shot 15 times with a 357 magnum or a 44 and survive like with 9mm. The odds of me being in a civilian self defense situation with the 3-3-3 rule, other studies that refute what your saying. I mean i guess its nuanced and individual choice. I still look at it like id rather have 8 357 magnum rounds than 15 9mm on me.

A lack of people surviving 15 rounds of .357 Magnum is almost certainly due to a lack of ammunition and the statistical improbability of reloads with revolvers during a gunfight. And again, the LE agencies that issued .357 Magnums and allowed .357 Magnum ammunition tended to have higher shooting standards than those that issued or only allowed .38 Special (with some exceptions like LAPD). Speed loaders didn't really become universal in police departments until the waning days of duty revolvers. I'd also wager that there's selection bias here, as the PPC regular/shooting team officer who practiced enough to successfully reload under extreme stress probably wouldn't need more than 6 rounds anyway.

There was a pretty famous case and dashcam video of a bad guy surviving 5 shots to the chest with a .357 Magnum, however.

As for 3/3/3, that's probably based on misinterpretation of LEO Killed in Action FBI data, and doesn't take in to account the gunfights that police officers win. Turns out that bad guys are more likely to successfully kill cops if they get the drop on them at close range when an arrest or vehicle stop is occuring. And that's before we take in to account that LEO shootings aren't direct analogues to most private citizen shootings, as the private citizen is (hopefully) not purposely going out looking for bad people.

According to concealed carry instructor Tom Givens' data of 67 former students involved in shootings, 3-5 yards was the vast majority of shootings at 87%. Interestingly, shootings inside 2 yards were no more common than those at 15-25 yards at 4% each. A takeaway from that is that distances can change very rapidly in a gunfight.

Active Self Protection's John Correia has reviewed thousands of concealed carrier and off-duty PO shootings, and he's said that the 5-7 rounds is typical these days, and shots exchanged past 5 yards are not particularly unusual.

Now, with that out of the way, I'm not going to say that a revolver is useless, or not the best tool for a given person/situation.

The average concealed carrier is probably better off with a Bodyguard 2.0 than a J-frame, but that doesn't mean that everyone is, and that doesn't mean that there aren't advantages to revolvers. Not everyone has the same sized hands, and the ability to customize a revolver's grip tends to be much greater than on a semi-auto. If you've got some bear paws, a J-frame with a grip that suits you may be better than a BG2.0 that your hand swallows up. Then, there's the fact that revolvers tend to handle neglect better than semi-autos so long as they're not locked up with rust. I cleaned up a pre-Model 38 for a guy that was caked with decades of lint and skin cells. The trigger was awful before cleaning, but it still worked.

8 rounds of .357 Magnum will certainly be enough for the majority of defensive gun uses. However, when capacity limited, it becomes even more important to avoid stupid people in stupid places at stupid times. If you live in or near a big city where multiple offender robbery/carjacking crews are present, I'm going to recommend a higher capacity semi-auto. Yes, usually, they turn tail and run when one of their fellow criminals gets shot, but not always. If I'm in/adjacent to the city, I prefer to have my Shield Plus or M&P 2.0 Compact, but if I'm going out to the exurbs, the threats are less common, and less likely to come in packs.

Have a gun and be first to hit are probably the two most important rules.

 

[seabright60]

Are you saying that fbi statistics ONLY use Leo stats? 333 was always spewed as an average of civilian self defense likelihood, im not saying a semi auto is useless but if your NOT a Leo and dont have unlimited practice opportunities, ammo, access to an armorer on your job its my opinion that your better off with a higher caliber revolver that you can point and shoot with no slide racking when as a NON PROFFESIONAL you can still function under pressure. I agree first hit is crucial , all the more reason to have that hit be as high a caliber as possible also. Im now thinking of switching from 357 magnum to 44 magnum for my edc.

 

[seabright60]

A lack of people surviving 15 rounds of .357 Magnum is almost certainly due to a lack of ammunition and the statistical improbability of reloads with revolvers during a gunfight. And again, the LE agencies that issued .357 Magnums and allowed .357 Magnum ammunition tended to have higher shooting standards than those that issued or only allowed .38 Special (with some exceptions like LAPD). Speed loaders didn't really become universal in police departments until the waning days of duty revolvers. I'd also wager that there's selection bias here, as the PPC regular/shooting team officer who practiced enough to successfully reload under extreme stress probably wouldn't need more than 6 rounds anyway.

There was a pretty famous case and dashcam video of a bad guy surviving 5 shots to the chest with a .357 Magnum, however.

As for 3/3/3, that's probably based on misinterpretation of LEO Killed in Action FBI data, and doesn't take in to account the gunfights that police officers win. Turns out that bad guys are more likely to successfully kill cops if they get the drop on them at close range when an arrest or vehicle stop is occuring. And that's before we take in to account that LEO shootings aren't direct analogues to most private citizen shootings, as the private citizen is (hopefully) not purposely going out looking for bad people.

According to concealed carry instructor Tom Givens' data of 67 former students involved in shootings, 3-5 yards was the vast majority of shootings at 87%. Interestingly, shootings inside 2 yards were no more common than those at 15-25 yards at 4% each. A takeaway from that is that distances can change very rapidly in a gunfight.

Active Self Protection's John Correia has reviewed thousands of concealed carrier and off-duty PO shootings, and he's said that the 5-7 rounds is typical these days, and shots exchanged past 5 yards are not particularly unusual.

Now, with that out of the way, I'm not going to say that a revolver is useless, or not the best tool for a given person/situation.

The average concealed carrier is probably better off with a Bodyguard 2.0 than a J-frame, but that doesn't mean that everyone is, and that doesn't mean that there aren't advantages to revolvers. Not everyone has the same sized hands, and the ability to customize a revolver's grip tends to be much greater than on a semi-auto. If you've got some bear paws, a J-frame with a grip that suits you may be better than a BG2.0 that your hand swallows up. Then, there's the fact that revolvers tend to handle neglect better than semi-autos so long as they're not locked up with rust. I cleaned up a pre-Model 38 for a guy that was caked with decades of lint and skin cells. The trigger was awful before cleaning, but it still worked.

8 rounds of .357 Magnum will certainly be enough for the majority of defensive gun uses. However, when capacity limited, it becomes even more important to avoid stupid people in stupid places at stupid times. If you live in or near a big city where multiple offender robbery/carjacking crews are present, I'm going to recommend a higher capacity semi-auto. Yes, usually, they turn tail and run when one of their fellow criminals gets shot, but not always. If I'm in/adjacent to the city, I prefer to have my Shield Plus or M&P 2.0 Compact, but if I'm going out to the exurbs, the threats are less common, and less likely to come in packs.

Have a gun and be first to hit are probably the two most important rules.

The 9mm wins on price, recoil and capacity, the 358 magnum wins on velocity, energy and trajectory. I dont care about price , im not recoil sensitive and capacity is most likely not going to be an issue. Im a big fan of the new york reload I always have my j frame 5 shot 357 and something else, either my 686 plus of my 327 pc but I do bring my shield plus sometimes thats a minimum of 12 or 14 rounds of 357 magnum or 5 357 and 11 rounds of the federal hst you mentioned. As you said it depends where im going. Cops get paid to look for trouble and are trained to see what doesnt fit ,as an 11 Bravo in the army we were trained to just kill period, as a civilian I think you have to carry what you feel most comfortable using and are skilled with. I am alot better with revolvers compared to most people and I see quite a few guys better than I am with semi autos so I lean revolver.