Shipping - again

[crsides]

I am well familiar with the rules for shipping when purchasing or selling handguns and long guns, USPS and Fedex/UPS. This is a new one for me. I need to send a hand gun I own to a licensed gunsmith for repair and return. I have a C&R and this is a C&R handgun, however, I don't think that matters in this case. I am not a dealer.

So my question is can I ship USPS a handgun for repair to a licensed gunsmith? Or does it have to go Fedex/ups?

thanks

 

[Tom S.]

As I read/understand postal regulations, you have to go FedEx/UPS.

 

[cherrypointmarine]

I've shipped guns I've sold ( not an FFL ) and sent them UPS . USPS is only for FFLs , they let them ship 2nd day air . Now Fedex and UPS make you go next day , which is very expensive . I think you'll find it's cheaper to go through an FFL .

 

[dockmurgw]

Assuming the "licensed" you mention for your gunsmith is a FFL, then I think you can ship a C&R eligible gun USPS with your C&R FFL. USPS regs on handguns from what I understand require shipper and recipient to have a FFL, they don't specify the class, just a FFL. The exception being antiques, which anyone can mail. I believe you will both need to exchange your FFL's for your records as it's sent between you. But I would call the USPS for a definitive decision.

 

[amazingflapjack]

I think you will find that, with Fed-X, it depends on the franchise. With mine I ship ground all the time. Also, if the FFL will send you a label, then you can send directly through the post office. Also, repair work is NOT ownership transfer-it's not a sale.

 

[Absalom]

Read 432.2 in the attached link. That’s official. Apply that to your situation as you think it fits

432 Mailability | Postal Explorer

 

[alwslate]

Priority mail flat rate box with insurance and signature required. Cheap,
fast, and secure. I have never once been asked what was inside the box.

 

[Absalom]

Priority mail flat rate box with insurance and signature required. Cheap,
fast, and secure. I have never once been asked what was inside the box.

To quote the Traveling Wilburys, “In Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught".

Might as well save yourself the insurance, because if you aren’t legally allowed to ship, it won’t do you any good if something goes sideways.

 

[amazingflapjack]

To quote the Traveling Wilburys, “In Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught".

Might as well save yourself the insurance, because if you aren’t legally allowed to ship, it won’t do you any good if something goes sideways.

"Advice" like this is just what we don't need. JMHO

 

[Tom S.]

Assuming the "licensed" you mention for your gunsmith is a FFL, then I think you can ship a C&R eligible gun USPS with your C&R FFL. USPS regs on handguns from what I understand require shipper and recipient to have a FFL, they don't specify the class, just a FFL. The exception being antiques, which anyone can mail. I believe you will both need to exchange your FFL's for your records as it's sent between you. But I would call the USPS for a definitive decision.

Read the link Absalom posted. The ATF definition of C&R and the USPS definition of C&R are not the same, though many make the mistake of thinking they are.

Here are some relevant sections:

432.2 Handguns

Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:

• Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
• Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing between governmental museums without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in 432.21 through 432.24 and Exhibit 432.25.
• Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
• Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
• Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

Note the words in part a) that say: "only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3." Here is the definition under 431.3:

431.3 Antique Firearm

Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

• Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
• Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Note it says nothing about 50 years old, etc., as well as other differences.

 

[Mercs]

Check here, this is a legit service
Gun Shipping - Fast, Legal, Affordable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alwslate]

To quote the Traveling Wilburys, “In Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught".

Might as well save yourself the insurance, because if you aren’t legally allowed to ship, it won’t do you any good if something goes sideways.

I guess I should have mentioned that I'm referring to C&R
eligible handguns and I do have a C&R. What goes sideways is
the negativity and the apparent hope that some other member
gets into trouble that happens every time this topic comes up.
Check GB and you will see sellers with hundreds or even
thousands of feedbacks that state in their listings that all
handguns are shipped by priority mail only.

 

[alwslate]

I have had a C&R for several years now and have bought and sold, mostly
bought, quite a few guns on two of the net auction sites. I have 100%
positive feedback on well over 100 transactions. There have been many
more transactions but many sellers don't bother to leave feedback even
though they want it. All guns that I have sold have been C&R guns and
most of the guns that I have bought have also been C&R. I have always
followed the law as I and the seller or buyer has understood it to be. All
handguns that I have sold were sent by priority mail. All C&R handguns
that I have bought have come directly to me by priority mail. The few
modern handguns I have bought went to a LGS by priority mail. My
experiences at buying and selling have been overwhelmingly positive
except for a very few. The same goes for my experiences at buying
and selling on a couple of net forums. The vast majority of the people
I have encountered during these transactions have been pleasant to
deal with. Maybe all this is partly because I expect good outcomes. I
have also run afoul of a very few suspicious, paranoid, hostile and
dishonest folks who naturally want to blame others. Only a few
thank goodness. But we can't expect to dodge every pothole we
encounter along the road of life now can we

 

[dockmurgw]

Read the link Absalom posted. The ATF definition of C&R and the USPS definition of C&R are not the same, though many make the mistake of thinking they are.

Here are some relevant sections:

Note the words in part a) that say: "only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3." Here is the definition under 431.3:

Note it says nothing about 50 years old, etc., as well as other differences.

Yes, I understand that. But also note that the rule states "may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when" So in my opinion, this only applies for shipping between 03 license holders, it does not apply when one of the parties is a 01 license holder. But besides this, I still think you are ultimately correct, and my opinion has changed. In other areas of the USPS Publication 52, it does clearly state that handguns can only be mailed between licensed "Dealers", which 03 license holders clearly are not. ATF allows mailing, but states USPS rules must be followed. So now I'm wondering why every reputable and established dealer I bought a hand gun from using my 03 license mails them to me via USPS? I'm in the middle of a purchase now and I'm going to ask him. Hopefully there's more to be learned on this subject.

 

[dockmurgw]

All C&R handguns that I have bought have come directly to me by priority mail. The few modern handguns I have bought went to a LGS by priority mail.

This has been my experience as well, which now that I have studied on the issue, puzzles me. When I read the postal regs, it looks like dealer to dealer is OK, but dealer to 03 is not. But all dealers do it! There has to be more to this than I'm finding online.

 

[deadin]

Just because it's happening doesn't make it legal. The normal result of bringing an "unenforced" regulation to light is that there will be a clamp-down and whatever benefit was being obtained will go away.
(Think bump-stocks, 80% receivers, etc.)

 

[Absalom]

.... I have never once been asked what was inside the box.

... What goes sideways is
the negativity and the apparent hope that some other member
gets into trouble .....

It sounds to me like you were the one inviting people to get into trouble by shipping and hoping nobody will find out. If you can legally ship USPS (or think you can), good for you.

 

[Ματθιας]

I am well familiar with the rules for shipping when purchasing or selling handguns and long guns, USPS and Fedex/UPS. This is a new one for me. I need to send a hand gun I own to a licensed gunsmith for repair and return. I have a C&R and this is a C&R handgun, however, I don't think that matters in this case. I am not a dealer.

So my question is can I ship USPS a handgun for repair to a licensed gunsmith? Or does it have to go Fedex/ups?

thanks

Have you asked the gunsmith what would be a preferable way to ship? He probably deals with this regularly and would be in a better position to answer than a bunch of anonymous people on the forum.

No offense to the anonymous people on the forum.

 

[alwslate]

This has been my experience as well, which now that I have studied on the issue, puzzles me. When I read the postal regs, it looks like dealer to dealer is OK, but dealer to 03 is not. But all dealers do it! There has to be more to this than I'm finding online.

All of the dealers do it openly and if it was illegal I'm sure that
someone would have given them the word by now. There is much
confusion about this even among those who write the regs I
believe. Part of it stems from the fact that many of them use the word dealer for any FFL holder. And actually C&R holders
are dealers but they are not in the business of dealing. Look at
how the BATF describes the 03 license. It says the C&R holder
is "not to engage in the business of dealing" which they do not
of course. But...I have seen and bought from sellers on GB
that have hundreds of feedbacks over several years who
clearly state that they have 03 FFLs, not 01s. So??? I think
that realistically people who want a gun to commit a crime
do not apply for any FFL, pass the background check, buy on
a public forum or auction site and then use said gun in a crime.
The BATF has more pressing issues to worry about than gun
hobbyists trading their toys back and forth. Think of the vast
number of guns in transit every year and the % that will ever
be used in any crime. It's simply a non event and the BATF
knows it.

 

[Absalom]

The issue, and any potential problem regarding this, is not BATF. The issue are primarily the postal regulations.

I highly doubt anyone ever gets prosecuted over a technicality like this. But following the regulations is the shipper's responsibility, and if an insured package disappears and you file a claim with USPS, you can be sure that technicality comes back to bite you, and claiming that everybody on GB does it won't get you a cent if the letter of the law says you weren't eligible to mail that handgun.

 

[doublesharp]

I've got a buddy that presents his C&R license confidently and the post office branch accepted it to ship w/out any qualms. His theory is if you act unsure you lose but if you are business as usual your transaction is treated as business as usual. The few times I've shipped I've sent machined parts from a ups branch with no problems.

 

[Absalom]

.... The few times I've shipped I've sent machined parts from a ups branch with no problems.

There’s your key: no problems. Everything is fine if it gets there. The moment there is an issue with a lost item, you’ve got problems.

If you shipped machine parts with UPS, you are tangling with BATF, by the way. Their regulations require that you inform the common carrier you use that you are shipping a handgun. Again, I doubt BATF is chasing prosecutions over this, but if there is an issue with the shipment, it’ll catch up with you.

 

[H Richard]

I have shipped guns to a gunsmith on two occasions via FedEx, and was shipped ground at a minimal rate, (I think it was around $15). Just had to declair it was a gunsmith FFL it was going to, and they looked it up on the internet.

 

[ladder13]

I guess not everyone is a “ law abiding gun owner”.