Shooting New Model #3 Target Revolvers

[Shrapnel]

I bought a couple of nice original target models in 38-40 and 44 Russian. I took them to the range today and shot them they both shoot well enough, but they do shoot high. I need to get higher front sights to get them POA. Any ideas or sights that I could use..

 

[mrcvs]

Every 19th Century revolver, and rifle, for that matter, that I own, shoots high, and usually to the left, for that matter. I’m guessing that revolvers were designed to be dead on at 100 yards, or somewhere near that. Maybe has something to do with the second amendment, a well regulated militia, and the potential for the need to defend oneself from afar?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

You would be better off slowing you ammo than changing the sights.

Ivan

 

[BMur]

Reloading

Ivan,
We represent the few or lower percentage that actually reload and “dial in” firearms.

Long barrel pistols were designed for the cavalry and basically dialed in at about 60 yards. Not 15 yards or 25 yards.

The 44 Russian had over 12 commercial loads available during the black powder era. Every one of those loads/bullet designs/weights would shoot different.

The dynamic is large and wide spread based on various barrel lengths, choice of powder load, etc. To dial in a firearm is to find the load that shoots the most accurate at any given distance.

By reducing the powder load as Ivan mentioned the bullet will drop. Also, the bullet type can actually be the reason the gun is shooting to the right of center. It’s not the sights until you prove it by shooting multiple loads and multiple bullet types.

It’s actually an art to dial in any given firearm so that it becomes a point and shoot gun. Bullet placement is also greatly impacted by bullet material. A pure lead bullet will impact totally different than a 20-1 lead/tin mix which will impact totally different than a 16-1 lead/tin mix.

It’s very satisfying when you dial in your gun so it becomes a point and shoot firearm. Hitting the exact same location every time at a specific distance.



Murph

 

[rct269]

Uh----how about a lower rear sight? I know where you can get one of those with a file---and end up with whatever floats your boat. Also---don't lose sight of the fact the sight carrier is screw adjustable for elevation---so there's no such thing as too low---as in it's idiot proof.

And if you don't want to mess with what may or may not be an original rear sight blade, I have a machinist's drawing of the rear blade, and you can do as more than a few other folks have done; and tell me your (snail) mail address---and I'll send a copy to you.

Should you select option #2, know that the drawing is of that for a .22 Single Shot (1st/2nd); and the width shown will have to be increased to match that of the sight carrier on the large frame guns---just for looks, if nothing else. I don't know about the height difference, but having it made higher than the drawing makes it idiot proof for sure.

Given a desire to experiment, you can do as (at least) one other enterprising soul has done; and have a strip made in the sight profile---but longer and higher than the drawing shows. That done, you can simply cut off a piece------and "cut to suit and beat to fit"---as the saying goes. Then when you lose the first one, as seems to be a popular pastime, just whack off another piece, and get on down the road! Truth be known, I'm thinking having a strip made might very well cost less than that for one blade-----be a damn sight easier to work with.

I had the first blade made from the drawing, and it fit perfectly! As far as that goes, I've never heard back from anyone that a blade made from the drawing didn't fit--------and there's been A BUNCH of blades made from the drawing in the last 20 some odd years---for both frame sizes.

Ralph Tremaine

And a word to the wise: If you're shooting smokeless loads, it won't be too awfully long before you're going to be having other problems to worry about. You might want to read what Dave Chicoine had to say on this topic---seeing as how he's forgotten more than pretty much anybody else knows about it.

And if you go to black powder loads (as you most certainly should), heed these words from another expert (Gary Lowe). "An air space in a black powder load is the definition of a pipe bomb!" (A bit of compression of the powder eliminates such a risk. And if/when you want to use some pee-wee loads, a dab of corn meal on top of the powder to take up space works just fine!)

 

[rct269]

Another thing-----------------------

Dave Chicoine was THE gunsmith for antiques in general, and S&W's in particular----right up until he had a stroke some years back. Fortunately his wisdom is preserved in his many books.

Chris Hirsch is THE gunsmith for antiques in general, and S&W's in particular today--------unless he's retired, and off taking absolutely exquisite wildlife pictures. My last contact with him was 8+ years ago.

I mention this in expectation of a lot of push back from folks who think they know about shooting smokeless powder loads in these guns---and because I won't be spending any time responding to it.

The bottom line is they're your guns, and you can use or abuse them to your heart's content. Enjoy or suffer---your choice!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[6string]

Another thing-----------------------

Dave Chicoine was THE gunsmith for antiques in general, and S&W's in particular----right up until he had a stroke some years back. Fortunately his wisdom is preserved in his many books.

Chris Hirsch is THE gunsmith for antiques in general, and S&W's in particular today--------unless he's retired, and off taking absolutely exquisite wildlife pictures. My last contact with him was 8+ years ago.

I mention this in expectation of a lot of push back from folks who think they know about shooting smokeless powder loads in these guns---and because I won't be spending any time responding to it.

The bottom line is they're your guns, and you can use or abuse them to your heart's content. Enjoy or suffer---your choice!

Ralph Tremaine

There is a LOT of wisdom in Ralph's two preceding entries.

A guiding principle when engaging artifacts of the past is to get out of your comfort zone and learn the historically informed period practice. Quite often, you'll find that the "problems" that presumbly exist vanish when taken in context of the big picture.

It doesn't matter if your talking about black powder in an antique revolver or gut strings on a baroque arch-lute.

 

[rct269]

Well, I'm out of my comfort zone------what's a baroque arch-lute?

RCT

Forget it---Google to the rescue!

 

[6string]

Well, I'm out of my comfort zone------what's a baroque arch-lute?

RCT

Pairs well with a nice Wheel Lock!

J. S. Bach - Lute Suite in E Major BWV 1006a - Evangelina Mascardi, Baroque Lute - YouTube

Evagelina Mascardi performs Bach. Listen to this through your earbuds while pouring out some Swiss 3F for your Kuchenreuter at the range!

 

[Jim Watson]

What was your point of aim on those orange targets, center or 6 o'clock?


Come on, guys, a hundred yards? These are target models, not Indian fighters.

 

[mrcvs]

Come on, guys, a hundred yards? These are target models, not Indian fighters.

I might have been referring more to colt Single Action Army revolvers from the 19th Century than Smith & Wesson revolvers, but you are at a good 10” high at 50 feet and 8” high at 75 feet or so. Maybe not dead on at 100 yards, but somewhere around 50 yards plus is where it’s likely sighted in at.

This references an 1896 production Single Action Army revolver with a 7 1/2” barrel. A civilian production revolver. I have an actual Indian Wars revolver I fire from time to time—a Colt Cavalry Model revolver—and it shoots even a bit higher.

I also have a Registered Magnum that was sighted in for 100 yards with a 6 o’clock hold and using .38 Special rounds.

 

[bcowern]

I have never shot black powder in an antique revolver.

I have a couple of NM3's I would like to try with black powder, but I'm totally clueless about the proper clean-up protocol, and would appreciate any input from those with experience.

Do you need to remove the side plate, disassemble the revolver, and immerse the parts in boiling water, dry, oil, and reassemble?

Regards,
bcowern

 

[rct269]

I have never shot black powder in an antique revolver.

I have a couple of NM3's I would like to try with black powder, but I'm totally clueless about the proper clean-up protocol, and would appreciate any input from those with experience.

Do you need to remove the side plate, disassemble the revolver, and immerse the parts in boiling water, dry, oil, and reassemble?

Regards,
bcowern

That's one way.

Another is (or may be) Hoppes has or did have a black powder solvent (a mere 18 years ago) that works like a charm-----use it as you would #9 today---inside and out.

As an aside, that same 18 years ago, I performed a throat length test---using corn meal as a spacer to vary the length from A BUNCH---to zero (with a cap & ball revolver). The corn meal loads were A LOT cleaner----inside AND out! I have no clue as to why it worked on the outside--but it did.

And I didn't bother with any disassembly other than that you'd do normally----remove the cylinder---not really necessary---just a bit tidier.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

Black powder

I only shoot black powder and black powder substitutes in my antique revolvers.
However, I never shoot my high grade collectables. I only shoot brown or no finish guns purposely to avoid value loss from finish damage from shooting black powder.

Especially blued guns.

If you insist upon shooting a high grade high finish antique you should apply a grease film on the cylinder, inner frame, recoil shield, and barrel forward of the forcing cone to avoid finish loss.

I always strip my brown guns and hot water soap clean them gently then follow up with a solvent cleaning.

The bore will often develop a heavy residue in storage so you have to reinspect and oil clean about 2 weeks after shooting.

If you don’t believe me about finish loss simply take a photo of the gun before you shoot it then after you shoot it and clean it.

No harm done with brown or gray guns.

Murph

 

[BMur]

S&W Target guns

S&W Target guns are identical to the standard NM3 only having target sights. The original design was in accordance with Military requirements and specifications so these guns were created to be sold primarily to the various military’s. One of the requirements was to be able to drop a horse at 60 yards distant which required the sights to be dialed in at that distance. They were cavalry arms initially not target shooters.

They were years later adapted to target shooting which brought different calibers, loads, target sights, and hand loading into the mix.

Murph

 

[Wyatt Burp]

I shoot smokeless loads in my New Model 3 Target Model, but it was converted to .22 by a very ingenious 1920s mechanic/blacksmith for a California railroad. I've only shot the gun a couple times but the tiny sights were horrible for me as you can see from the target. I just could not see them. This gun might eventually end up in a classified ad in a gun forum near you. The extractor design is amazing. The barrel is lined with a lathed down .22 rifle barrel.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


One thing that is different between the regular and target versions
are the hammers. The regular NM3 had a rebounding hammer and
the target versions did not.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[steelslaver]

I shoot big bore single shot black powder rifles and clean the bores with a mixture of 1/3 Murphy's oil soap, 1/3 hydrogen peroxide and 1/3 alcohol. I clean my cap and ball muzzle loaders by dismounting the barrel, sticking the breach in a bucket of hot soappy water and then swab the bore with a jag and patch. The jag patch works as a plunger and once it is wet it willl suck hot soapy water up in the bore from the nipple and scrub the bore clean. a second bucket of warm water to rinse. Swab dry and let set in warm place and give it a couple passes with light oil

I have taken my Ruger Old Army to the utility sink and cleaned it with hot soapy water and a rag, then rinsed well with hot water. The steel gets hot and basically dries itself. A bit of oil in by the trigger and hammer and on the center pin and its good to go.

IF, I was worried about water trapped in an action I would remove grips and stick it in the oven at 350f for a 1/2 hr or so and any moisture what so ever would evaporate. You could also use a heat gun. 350f is way to low of temperature to effect any temper. In the case of the heat gun know that If you can hold onto it it certainly isn't hot enough to effect the temper of the areas your holding

 

[Shrapnel]

What was your point of aim on those orange targets, center or 6 o'clock?


Come on, guys, a hundred yards? These are target models, not Indian fighters.

It is interesting to find out what people know and don’t know.

As a target revolver made in 1906, I don’t know if it was still a black powder cartridge then. It doesn’t matter, I am shooting smokeless powder at a safe level and need to get it to POA.

I was aiming at the center of the orange target…

 

[steelslaver]

I am not completely convinced that the same pressure developed by one type of powder be it black, or smokeless is harder on a gun than another. Lots of opinions not much actual science.

The exact same argument is ongoing in the big bore single shot circles.

I know guys that are firing original Sharps, Springfields,Winchesters etc using smokeless loads and have been for some time. one of them a decent gunsmith, with a lot of nice guns and others who cringe at the thought.

But each to their own beliefs and guns. I can believe that even though one powder produces the same velocity as another, there may well be pressure differences as well as elevation variations. After all I can not achieve the same velocities with Unique that I can with 2400. The recoil impulses and the speed they occur WILL effect elevation as will grip, length of barrel, bullet weight etc.

I would be willing to bet that if I took 2 identical S&W revolvers with the same length barrels, set the sights with the same number of elevation clicks and exactly centered. Stuck them in my Ransom rest, loaded them with the exact same loads, when I fired them, they would not group in the same location.

I do know that most people who shoot revolvers I have zeroed for me hit higher than I do.