Shooting to the left.

[metroplex]

I have a brand new Shield Plus Optic Ready and had mentioned here in the forums that I noticed the slide torquing left when dry firing. This was with me using the right hand, left hand, even supported in a stable table/position. When that striker is released, the slide/barrel/optic goes left. I thought it wouldn't affect it during live fire, but at the range I'd notice this happening. It just wasn't as consistent as the SIG P365X which is a smaller pistol than the Shield Plus

Doing rapid fire transition drills at 10 yd, I'm totally confident with the P365X. The Shield Plus was shooting looser groups with "fliers" and I'm using a red dot that I can adjust for windage/elevation. I noticed that I had to compensate by adjusting more windage on the red dot to the point the irons weren't perfectly co-witnessing if I wanted to use the irons.

Just to be clear, it is now low/left - but straight left. I can see the slide/optic/barrel doing the jump when the striker is released. When I used a laser cartridge inside the chamber, I'd see the laser jump as well - which means as the striker is impacting the primer on a cartridge it is most likely jumping just as it fires.


I also shoot my Glock 17 at 25 yd mostly, standing/unsupported. I don't have issues hitting my targets at that range. I only took the Shield to the 10 yd range to get the optic zeroed and get familiar with it.


One thing that came to my mind is how the Shield barrel does not have a relief cut for the recoil guide rod. the guide rod is just sort of held in there. So it could very well be moving a bit during firing which explains why this is an intermittent issue.

On the P365, Glock, even M&P 2.0, there is a relief cut on the barrel for the guide rod to slip into and stay secured.

 

[rwsmith]

Do you know what's tough?

I bet I'm not the only one here that shoots several very different models of semi pistol and revolvers. Getting the grip right for each of them and switching pistols during a range session usually means firing an 'adjustment group' where I have to relearn the right grip for 'that' gun. And I have a heck of a lot more trouble with the compacts than I do the full size pistols.

Hickok45 on Youtube is pretty disgusting. The man has HUGE hands and he did a segment on 'palm pistols' which literally sat IN his palm. He was wanging away at his 80 yard gong that I'd probably have trouble hitting with my full size third gens.



My son has a Springfield XD. Great gun, well made in every aspect, but I can't shoot it worth beans. I'm sure I would 'work it out' if I practice with it a lot, but I don't have the time with it to do so.

 

[metroplex]

I'm used to my full sized Glock 17 but found the M&P 2.0 full-sized to be a more jumpy gun for some reason. I kept adjusting my grip but couldn't find the best spot to manage the "recoil". I ran the Medium backstrap and may go to the small backstrap to see if I can get more of my supporting palm on the gun.

I thought the Shield Plus might just be too small of a gun but the SIG P365X is even smaller and I didn't have to do much/any adjustment to fire it more consistently. I looked at a lot of YouTube video comparisons and it seemed like everyone that shot the Shield Plus against the P365, seemed to have larger groups with more left bias. The P365's tended to have tighter groups.

 

[biku324]

So...about a year and a half ago I bought a Shield 2.0 in 45 for me and one in 40 for my wife. BOTH shot left a few inches left at 15 yards for both of us using our carry ammo. I simply drifted the front sights (not the rear - see instructions) with a Wyoming Sight Drifter. Now they both are dead on for windage, no matter the distance.

I see the 'Shield shoots left' often enough that it seems like a bad spec at one time from the factory. This is a non-issue for us - it's fixed.

 

[Hiwood]

Retired police officer and firearms instructor here. I experienced the same issue with my Shield hitting to the left as well. It's really an easy fix...use a sight pusher to move your rear sight to the right to make a correction in point of impact. In my case the elevation was OK. A slight sight adjustment corrected the problem.

 

[Gman556]

I find it really hard to believe that all these shields are shooting low left from the factory.

There was one occasion where I could see the rear sight was a little off to one side from the factory, but 99.99% of the time it's the shooter.

I believe some others here have stated that these slimmer compact carry guns with their slim grips are a little tough to shoot sometimes.

I keep reading the "I have been shooting for da da da years so it's not me" or the "I'm an instructor" so it's not me BS.

Please don't tell me that all these 100's of long time shooters or instructors on the internet are all getting pistols with the sights being off that often.

If I offended anyone with these facts, too bad, learn to shoot better, and shoot more often than once or twice a year.

I can remember when I used to shoot left with everything and would just drift the rear sight over, but when I started shooting allot more often I would have to drift everything back because I would start shooting right. That's how I knew it was me and not the gun or the sights most of the time.

I know when I don't shoot for a few weeks or dryfire practice I can go a bit left at first until I get warmed up again. This is a perishable skill no matter what anyone tries to tell themselves.


I remember us all dog piling on a newer member here who claimed that he was so good he only needs to shoot once a year because he was that good. We all knew it was BS.

Two things you can do.

Be honest with yourself and shoot more, especially if you are going to carry on a regular basis or, just drift the sights, but being honest with yourself will get you better results.

 

[metroplex]

I and most here have said left (as in due west / left), not low left. Low left is general shooter error for a RH shooter. Just dry firing my Shield Plus w/ Vortex Defender it is clear as day this gun tends to jerk left when that striker is released. The slide/barrel assembly just hops/jerks. I can change my grip/trigger finger significantly to get it about 50/50 better but nothing I have found works 100% of the time. Even shooting it left handed does the same thing.

The P365X is a smaller gun and I don't have that issue. No issue with the Glock 17 either nor the M&P 2.0 full-sized or M&P 5.7

 

[Dave Lively]

I find it really hard to believe that all these shields are shooting low left from the factory.

Believe it. Note that the guns are shooting straight left, not low left.

In addition to my Shield Plus I have a Glock 43 and a Sig P365 as well as other handguns. The only one that shoots left, straight left, is the Shield Plus. If it I had an issue shooting small 9mms it would show up in other guns too.

The two possible explanations are:

1 - The gun shoots a little to the left.
2 - The gun is particularly difficult to shoot well.

In case 1 the solution is to fix whatever is causing the gun to shoot left.

In case 2 the solution is to sell the gun. No point working extra hard to shoot a gun well when there are easier to shoot alternatives.

I really don't think the gun is hard to shoot well. It has a nice trigger and good ergonomics. Unless someone has a better solution I am going to try drifting the sights.

S&W makes good guns which is why I buy them but they are NOT perfect. The Shield Plus I bought new had a dead front night sight. And the three extra 13 round magazines it came with would not drop free despite the 10 and 13 round mags in the smaller cardboard box with gun working fine. S&W sent me a new front sight and replacement magazines. It is perfectly reasonable to assume a company that would ship a gun with a dead sight and bad magazines might also ship one that shoots to the left.

BTW, both the original front sight and replacement I installed being very careful to center shot to the left by the same amount.

 

[rwsmith]

After reading these...

...i'm STILL sure that low and to the left is 'shooter error' that is me, myself and I. BUT I'm going to investigate the possibllity that the gun is aggravating the problem. After reading several different threads I've got a LOT of spadework to do at the range. When I get like this I have to write myself a 'program' to follow to make sure I get done what needs doing. This is going to be a real job. Of course I'm not going to touch the sights until I PROVE that they need touching.

Most of my pistols have been on target and needed very little adjustment, if any. I bought a model 5903, took it to the range and couldn't hit much. Silly me tried a round through the chrony and shot the chrony. I later confirmed that it was shooting 8" low at 7 yards. The sight was bottomed out. I measured the sight, did some trig and raised the sight a LOT.
That fixed it. I can't wait to go out again.

 

[biku324]

I find it really hard to believe that all these shields are shooting low left from the factory.

Two things you can do.

Be honest with yourself and shoot more, especially if you are going to carry on a regular basis or, just drift the sights, but being honest with yourself will get you better results.

There's a third option. One can also ignore anonymous internet experts.

Drifting front sights on both of our Shields corrected the left-of-POA POI to POA = POI. Two calibers, two shooters. Not sure about anyone else's firearms.

 

[Dave Lively]

...i'm STILL sure that low and to the left is 'shooter error' that is me, myself and I.

Agree completely. I am not a perfect shooter and have caught myself moving the gun when I pull the trigger. It usually happens when I try to shoot quickly. The groups move a lot low, a little to the left and get larger.

What I am seeing with my Shield Plus is different. It shoots a little to the left, elevation is fine, groups are OK and it doesn't matter how slowly and deliberately I shoot the gun. I still plan to have someone else shoot the gun before I adjust the sights though just to be absolutely sure.

 

[metroplex]

So I decided to try my MantisX on the M&P 2.0 (I don't have a rail adapter for the Shield Plus). I don't have the low and to the left issue, and again wanted to stress again it is due left / not low/left.

So I was running my benchmarks and went back to the data logs when I saw the slide/dot jarr/jink to the left. MantisX didn't see that as a trigger/user error. It registered it as a 96+ score and saw that it was pretty much dead center. However it was very clear and apparent that the red dot/slide just jinked left once that striker fell.

The M&P 2.0 jinks to the left, but not nearly as much as the Shield Plus. I'd observe this during live fire with both pistols but the M&P 2.0 is generally a more consistent shooter than the Shield Plus.

Once I get the rail adapter for the Shield Plus I will run the same test again.

But in case people are still assuming low/left, its not. It's basically the entire slide jinking left (very noticeable with an optic red dot) once that striker is released.

 

[WR Moore]

The sight may be off from the factory. However, it could be your trigger digit position on the trigger and/or your technique with that trigger. And, just because you shoot something else dead center doesn't mean you're not the cause with the "troublesome" gun.

Heck, I can demonstrate the effects of trigger finger position/trigger control on a bipod/sand bag rested 10-22T.

 

[rct269]

" I find it really hard to believe that all these shields are shooting low left from the factory."

One of us said that up there.

For openers, I don't know beans from apple butter about Shields, or any other S&W product made from the mid 1950's on. Here's what I do know---and I started off knowing it shortly after my very first Problem Solving School-------on the very first day. That's where (and when) you get it beaten into your head to make sure you know what the REAL problem is----before you start spending valuable resources trying to solve symptoms---or apparent problems.

My take is the REAL problem becomes apparent when you compare products made before before the mid 1950's to those made afterwards---as well as myriad other indicators. Now these problems don't jump right out at you at that time, but that seems to be when they first started. They didn't amount to much at that time---but time passed, and things got worse.

There was a time, like the first hundred years, when you spent your money on a S&W product, you came away believing you had an example of a product made to be the best possible product for the price. I think you were right. Today, I think you get a product made at the lowest possible cost. These feelings aren't those destined to be those of the warm, fuzzy variety----but they very clearly illustrate the change in the philosophy of the folks who made those products.

Damn shame too!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[metroplex]

MantisX takes the sights out of the equation and looks only at trigger pull. It’s not the shooter from the data I have seen.

 

[Gman556]

It's kind of funny because I still see most of you here still blaming the gun and blaming other things and not even questioning your shooting skills.

Now we got one guy saying his silly program which is an absolute joke is saying his shooting is awesome and it's the gun LOL!

Anything to separate you from your money.

There's no way you can tell me that every single person that's posted in this thread and telling us that it's the gun and not them are not doing something to induce this.

And of course now we got a new reason that it's not the shooter.. ("It's not shooting low and left, it's just shooting left, so it's not me!") Lol yeah ok!!!

#Me too!!!

In all seriousness I'm not saying that it's not possible that the sites can be a little off, but not this many times, come on man!

Be honest. How far left are you shooting? Couple of inches at 10 yards, 5-6 inches at 25 yards? It's you and not the gun.

I wonder how many here are going to ,or have tapped their sights over and still will shoot just a little bit left, but are never going to admit it was them and not the gun. LOL talk about Internet Experts!

I have never seen so much BS and stubborn egos as I have seen in the firearms community. And before you say I'm the pot calling the kettle black here, just remember in my thread above I admitted that it was me and not the firearm. No ego to protect here.

As a matter of fact, and this is a fact that is well known that females are a lot easier to train, than males are due to the big large *** male ego thinking just because they're a male it's a rite of passage to automatically know how to be John Wick with a firearm.


It looks like I got some of you in the feels though so I'm going to stop posting in this thread so I don't hurt anyone's feelings anymore here because I kind of feel bad about it.

No, seriously, I do!!

 

[metroplex]

Quite frankly I stopped reading your ramblings awhile ago.

The MantisX is an accelerometer that tracks the movement of the gun before, during, and after the trigger pull. I don't have issues with the Glock, M&P 5.7, or SIG P365X and MantisX data confirms they are fine. I don't show low and to the left. The Shield Plus is the only one that has a tendency to suddenly shoot left. M&P 2.0 exhibits this but not nearly as much. Maybe you're shooting only with iron sights so you don't see this really happen as you keep suggesting drifting the sight. I can adjust the windage of the red dot to compensate but the issue with the Shield Plus is the slide itself jinks left when the striker is released. I have drifted the front sight to adjust for the windage but this is essentially chasing ones' tail because it is still going to jink intermittently. And if it doesn't jink, you're going to shoot too much to the right.

Since MantisX attaches to the rail, it won't track the slide movement. I'm going to tape/strap the MantisX sensor to the slide of the Shield Plus and see how it moves compared to the other guns.

Feel free to stop contributing or reading this thread. As one of my bosses once said, "ain't gonna hurt my feelings"

 

[Brian Parrish]

Dry Fire?

If our answers so far have missed what you actually described.
I think we have stock solutions pre-loaded for such questions.
I am sorry I don't have the answer, but I did want the OP to know that we should consider what was actually said.

I agree that the gun should NOT be jumping to the left just because you pulled the trigger. I will be very interested to know what is happening and how to fix it. May I suggest?

Clamp the pistol in a vice.
Never mind where the bullet hits.
Set the camera to take a slo-mo video of the gun as it fires.
You will see if there is slop in the slide to frame fit.
You need to see how much the gun is jumping.
You will be able to see if the firing force is causing it to shift in your hand.
A movement that is greater than the mechanical limitations of the weapon will obviously be attributable to your grip or the other suggestions by the peers on the thread. A movement that is attributable to purely mechanical issues ought to show in some way whether the gun is firing or not. Something ought to be wobblin' around ya know? What happens to the slide when you dry fire it?

If you think that it might be your grip not the gun, because the slide just ain't all that loose, then try a piece of inner tube around the grip. Squeeze tightly and tell us the result. My Glock 42 is just like this.

Hope you can fix it.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[Brian Parrish]

So just the slide jerks left not the frame.
It is intermittent.
It happens when you dry fire too?

 

[rwsmith]

So I decided to try my MantisX on the M&P 2.0 (I don't have a rail adapter for the Shield Plus). I don't have the low and to the left issue, and again wanted to stress again it is due left / not low/left.......

.

I gotcha. MY problem is low left and most likely the shooter.