Short Stroking

[OLDNAVYMCPO]

Let me preface this thread with a little background. First off, I built a new AR, my third such. This one I wanted to be iron sights only. Secondly, I reload for my 5.56 guns. My favorite powder for this is H 4895 which is also my favorite for my M-14. H 4895 has been in short supply locally so I decided to try H 4198. I reloaded 100 rnds on Sunday.

Monday, the wife and I went to the range as usual. We always shoot our handguns first, 100 rnds each. She shot her usual Rugers and I shot my S&W 4566 .45 ACP. I typically shoot at 10 yds rapid fire, she shoots at 7 yds.

After the handguns, I unlimbered my new AR. With my usual H 4895 loads, the gun functioned flawlessly. With the H 4198 loads it was short stroking with every shot. The Bolt Carrier Group would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not enough to engage and chamber the next round.

I had loaded 100 rnds of the H 4198 persuasion and was afraid that I was now going to have to eat them or else my new build was at fault.

Yesterday, I field stripped all three of my ARs and cleaned and lubed.

Today, took two ARs to the range, an older build and the new one. I was more than pleased that they both functioned flawlessly with the new reloads. Apparently the new build has to run wet ( heavily lubed).

 

[LVSteve]

You didn't say how juicy your new load is and what velocity you are seeing. I don't reload, but if a gas gun needs that much more lube to run I'd be looking closely at it for a mechanical issue. If none were found, the load needs more beans IMHO.

Edited to add:

A quick root around the Web shows that others have had problems with this powder in ARs. Some say it doesn't cycle most ARs without a near or at max load. Weird thing is it works well in 7.62x39 in SKS rifles. Go figure.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I built a new AR, my third such. This one I wanted to be iron sights only.

Apparently the new build has to run wet ( heavily lubed).

You can also try a lighter buffer.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have to lube the heck out of new auto's, be they rifles or shotguns.

You can stone or steel wool the rough spots down to help out the action but
that is a personal option, since some just think more ammo will finally smooth things out......
and it will.

Some don't like to mess with a high end weapon.........
but if just a stock weapon, I see no reason to not work on them.

I always check a rifles magazine and its feed ramp area for best results
as a minimal tune up.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Duplicate..

 

[bigggbbruce]

I built a new AR, my third such. This one I wanted to be iron sights only. The Bolt Carrier Group would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not enough to engage and chamber the next round.

Apparently the new build has to run wet ( heavily lubed).

You can also try a lighter buffer.

 

[rg1]

4198 is the most notorious powder for causing short stroking in AR's. Just a tad too fast burning and not enough gas at the port. Those that report solving short stroking with 4198 powder have used maximum or near maximum data. I've read many issues over the years with 4198 in AR's. I wouldn't even try loading with it in .223/5.56 autoloaders. Your rifle may cycle with it if you keep it wet with oil and near maximum loads?

 

[scooter123]

Let me preface this thread with a little background. First off, I built a new AR, my third such. This one I wanted to be iron sights only. Secondly, I reload for my 5.56 guns. My favorite powder for this is H 4895 which is also my favorite for my M-14. H 4895 has been in short supply locally so I decided to try H 4198. I reloaded 100 rnds on Sunday.

Monday, the wife and I went to the range as usual. We always shoot our handguns first, 100 rnds each. She shot her usual Rugers and I shot my S&W 4566 .45 ACP. I typically shoot at 10 yds rapid fire, she shoots at 7 yds.

After the handguns, I unlimbered my new AR. With my usual H 4895 loads, the gun functioned flawlessly. With the H 4198 loads it was short stroking with every shot. The Bolt Carrier Group would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not enough to engage and chamber the next round.

I had loaded 100 rnds of the H 4198 persuasion and was afraid that I was now going to have to eat them or else my new build was at fault.

Yesterday, I field stripped all three of my ARs and cleaned and lubed.

Today, took two ARs to the range, an older build and the new one. I was more than pleased that they both functioned flawlessly with the new reloads. Apparently the new build has to run wet ( heavily lubed).

I ALWAYS run my AR's "wet", it was how I was taught to do it. BTW, you sound an awful lot like me. All 3 of my AR's are home builds and I have NEVER shot one single round of commercial 223, every round I use is one of my own creations. Note, my preferred powders are Varget (for precision load) and CFE 223. Big plus for the CFE223 is that if meters wonderfully. Unlike Varget which requires trickling each and every charge to weight. I also use H110 for my 300 Blackout loads.

I've also Installed Syrac Ordinance Adjustable Gas Blocks on all 3 of my AR's. Started with the 300 Blackout build which has a 16 inch Wilson Combat barrel with a Pistol Length gas system for use with a supressor. When I saw how freaking clean that AR shot with the gas system tuned to the load I installed adjustable gas blocks on my other two AR's in 223. Combined with Nickel Boron plated carrier groups using one of these gas blocks can cut the typical cleaning time for the receiver in half or even more.

Also keep a hex tool specific to each rifle in the soft side bag for the rifle in the event it needs to be tuned at the range. Note, take a standard Allen wrench, cut off a length about 1.25 inch long and drill a small hole in a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum rod cut to the length required to go in under the hand guard and you have a no fumble tool to adjust the gas supply without removing the hand guard. If you a bit OCD like me you can even chuck it up in a Lathe and use a knurling tool to knurl the tip.

 

[Rule3]

You didn't say how juicy your new load is and what velocity you are seeing. I don't reload, but if a gas gun needs that much more lube to run I'd be looking closely at it for a mechanical issue. If none were found, the load needs more beans IMHO.

Edited to add:

A quick root around the Web shows that others have had problems with this powder in ARs. Some say it doesn't cycle most ARs without a near or at max load. Weird thing is it works well in 7.62x39 in SKS rifles. Go figure.

NAH, it can never be the actual HandLoaded ammo,or the components used to BUILD a AR, it is always more fun to talk about short stroking and wet lube.


No owners manual I have ever seen says apply excess, gobs of lube and run the firearm WET? Just the opposite it says to apply LIGHTLY. There are only 3-4 friction points on a AR bolt. Then of course there is "the proper, bestest lube"
Hundreds of videos on the web on how to do this,

 

[LVSteve]

4198 is the most notorious powder for causing short stroking in AR's. Just a tad too fast burning and not enough gas at the port. Those that report solving short stroking with 4198 powder have used maximum or near maximum data. I've read many issues over the years with 4198 in AR's. I wouldn't even try loading with it in .223/5.56 autoloaders. Your rifle may cycle with it if you keep it wet with oil and near maximum loads?

More research after my post backs this up. What I also found interesting was that IMR 4198 and H 4198 are not identical. Still, neither was suited to the AR.

As for running any semi auto "wet", I just won't do it. It a gun needs that much lube to run with normal ammo, there's something wrong with it.

Yes, you could probably change the buffer to run 4198, but now the gun is tuned for that powder and will beat itself to death with commercial ammo. I wouldn't do that for any load unless I had built up the gun and ammo for a very, very specific purpose like training youngsters or building something for suppressed use only.

 

[OLDNAVYMCPO]

Most experienced AR shooters run the gun wet. By that it is meant that the BCG looks wet rather than dry. An excess of lube only blows out with the first couple of shots.

As far as using H-1498 or IMR-1498 there are many reports as to it being an accurate powder with the AR when a 55gr bullet is used. Which is exactly what I was using. The problem was that the failing AR was brand new and the Nickle Boron BCG was tight as it should have been in a new build. Once I properly lubed it, it ran like a charm.

Really appreciate all the expert advice.

 

[Rule3]

Just because there may be data for a load doen't make the powder(s) the best choice.
Neither of those seem to be the preferred powders for 223/556 in ARs

With the multitude of powders out there by all companies, there may be a better solution.


But like they say to each their own.


H4198



This Extreme series extruded propellant has gone through some changes since its inception while maintaining the identical burning speed of the past.
The kernels were shortened to improve metering and necessary elements were added to make it insensitive to hot or cold temperatures.
H4198 is outstanding in cartridges like the 222 Remington, 444 Marlin and the 7.62 X 39.


H4895



H4895 is a versatile rifle powder with origins in the 30-06 cartridge as a military powder. This is a historic powder for Hodgdon as it was the first powder sold by our founder, Bruce “B.E.” Hodgdon to the reloading public.
As a member of the Extreme line of extruded powder, this powder is a good solution for 30-06, 17 Remington, 250-3000 Savage, 308 Winchester and 458 Winchester, to name just a few. It is amazingly accurate in every cartridge where it is listed in our data.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

In my experience with the AR rifles (1969 to present) they are all somewhat sensitive to lubrication issues. Too dry, things tend to seize up in mid-cycle. On the other hand, additional lubricant may allow what appears to be proper functioning, but only for a limited time. The gas tube is constantly feeding hot powder gases into the receiver and bolt carrier group, and the lubricant tends to collect that residue and turn to sludge, which will act to gum up all of the critical operating parts.

All gas-operated semi-autos (and full autos) can be sensitive to every aspect of the ammunition. Pressures must be within a relatively narrow band of performance, peak pressures must be achieved within a relatively narrow window for proper cycling, and gases must be as clean as possible (which is a bug-a-boo to achieve with loads that must perform under all weather, temperature, humidity, and other conditions). Short version, either the rifle must be specifically tuned for the ammunition to be used, or standard ammunition specifications must be duplicated very closely to provide sustained performance.

Loading ammo for any semi-auto is challenging. Deviating very far from factory-spec ammo invites problems. At least the AR rifles don't have the limitations presented by the M1 Garand (and M14, M1A, etc) with gas cylinders and operating rods that require very specific ammo performance to avoid damage, much less to achieve satisfactory performance. The AR rifles bleed gases directly from the barrel, directly through a tube ported directly into the bolt carrier. Get the pressure and pressure curve right and the rifle will probably function as intended.

Best regards.

 

[WR Moore]

While I've used other powders over almost 40 years, my go to powders for .223/5.56 mm ball equivalent reloads are the two 4198's. While I started with the IMR, I've found the Hogdon version runs smaller SDs and meters better.

So far as I was able to determine, 4198 was the original powder used in development of the rifle. I've never had a short stroke issue with any of my rifles, nor has anyone using my ammo.

Of course every Frankengun ever built was assembled by certified armorers using the highest quality parts and the proper jigs/gauges. Just like everyone's reloads are match quality.

 

[tlawler]

Damn fine shootin’ there, Master Chief. And the Mrs. as well!

 

[bigedp51]

Your type gas system and port pressure effects the bolt cycling. When I built my AR15 carbine with a 16 inch barrel I used a mid-length gas system so I wouldn't pound the rifle. If the rifle doesn't cycle properly you do not have enough port pressure to cycle the action. The AR15 is noted for being over gassed so the action cycles wet or dry.

If your action does not cycle "dry" with minimum lube your load is to light or your using the wrong powder. The proper port pressure makes the action cycle.

Less is more when it comes to lube


FrogLube ‘Green’ Weapons Care System Review
FrogLube Weapon Care System Review - Guts N' Gills

The FrogLube System is supposed to be used as follows:

1. Thoroughly clean weapon using FrogLube Solvent, or FrogLube Super Degreaser.
2. Apply FrogLube CLP and allow time to absorb. Using heat quickens the rate of absorption. This step is supposed to “season” the metal, soaking FrogLube into it.
3. Scrub, agitate, and wipe off any excess FrogLube CLP.
4. Apply additional FrogLube CLP to lubricate as desired, however, FrogLube is supposed to perform as designed wet or dry.

 

[oldman10mm]

As in post #7,4198 (whether H or IMR) is too fast a burner for AR 5.56/223 or AR 308/7.62.
4198 would probably be very useful for AR 300AAC.

 

[MichiganScott]

Most experienced AR shooters run the gun wet. By that it is meant that the BCG looks wet rather than dry. An excess of lube only blows out with the first couple of shots.

Really appreciate all the expert advice.

I put one away way too wet a couple of years ago. The CLP on the outside evaporated and the rifle looked to have just about the correct amount of lube on it when I picked it up to take to the range last week to do some long forgotten load work.

For the first five shots it smoked like a muzzle loader with oil smoke curling out of every opening. Worked just fine for the next 100 rounds until I was done.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You went from a medium speed and versatile powder to one of the fastest rifle powders on the market. While some reloaded do fine good loads IMO it's not a powder well suited for the 5.56mm cartridge and an AR style rifle.

It seems you don't want to use a Ball powder so I won't recommend the H335 I use but when you can't find H4895 or IMR4895 you might look for something similar in burn rate.

IMR 8208 XBR is a very accurate powder in the .223 and Benchmark or H322 will also produce target grade accuracy.

You can give AA2495 a try too, it was developed to mimic the pressure curve of IMR4895. I hear RL10X will also work well. AR-Comp was also developed specifically for the semi-auto AR platform.

If you don't mind using a Spherical powder you have even more proven choices.
They are among others, AA2230, AA2460, H335, TAC, Power Pro 1200R and CFE -223, all will serve you well.

If I were chasing high end accuracy the powders I would look to first are IMR 8208 XBR, Benchmark or H322 and see which delivered the best accuracy in your barrel.

All in my opinion of course, good luck.

 

[Rule3]

Your type gas system and port pressure effects the bolt cycling. When I built my AR15 carbine with a 16 inch barrel I used a mid-length gas system so I wouldn't pound the rifle. If the rifle doesn't cycle properly you do not have enough port pressure to cycle the action. The AR15 is noted for being over gassed so the action cycles wet or dry.

If your action does not cycle "dry" with minimum lube your load is to light or your using the wrong powder. The proper port pressure makes the action cycle.

Less is more when it comes to lube


FrogLube ‘Green’ Weapons Care System Review
FrogLube Weapon Care System Review - Guts N' Gills

The FrogLube System is supposed to be used as follows:

1. Thoroughly clean weapon using FrogLube Solvent, or FrogLube Super Degreaser.
2. Apply FrogLube CLP and allow time to absorb. Using heat quickens the rate of absorption. This step is supposed to “season” the metal, soaking FrogLube into it.
3. Scrub, agitate, and wipe off any excess FrogLube CLP.
4. Apply additional FrogLube CLP to lubricate as desired, however, FrogLube is supposed to perform as designed wet or dry.

FROG lube is made from COCONUT oil.


All gun oils, lubes, solvents are "magical" Put a tiny amount in a small container, give it a catchy name, pay some "experts" to endorse it and make tons of money!


Kinda like Perfume for guns!


Many many oils have PTFE (Teflon) even when the carrier(solvent" has evaporated and the metal is "dry" the Teflon is there lubricating,


"She like to run wet" Just a bunch of buzz words


"Most experienced AR shooters run the gun wet."

What is that statement, cliche, based on?? Facts??



For the average range shooter, how many rounds are shot? Is it 3 round burst? Full auto?? Does the rifle run out of lube after 100 rounds, 500, 1000??

 

[bigedp51]

The reason I used Frog Lube as a example is because it soaks into the metal. And even if it looks dry as the AR15 warms up the bolt and action becomes wet.

I have made my own "bug juice" and ran it wet, and I tried Frog Lube and ran it semi-dry.

And now I just use a moderate amount of CLP and clean my AR after every use.

And my new Ruger .223/5.56 below just doesn't get as dirty as a AR for some reason. (and my hand and arm are under gassed)

 

[GaryV2]

Most experienced AR shooters run the gun wet. By that it is meant that the BCG looks wet rather than dry. An excess of lube only blows out with the first couple of shots.

I humbly disagree. Having owned multiple milspec 5.56 semi-auto weapons I have never applied more than milspec lube on any of them and only had a cycle problem when sand made its way into the receiver. Don't recommend going to a lighter tube spring as it will put undo stress on your carrier.

 

[Warren Sear]

While I've used other powders over almost 40 years, my go to powders for .223/5.56 mm ball equivalent reloads are the two 4198's. While I started with the IMR, I've found the Hogdon version runs smaller SDs and meters better.

So far as I was able to determine, 4198 was the original powder used in development of the rifle. I've never had a short stroke issue with any of my rifles, nor has anyone using my ammo.

Of course every Frankengun ever built was assembled by certified armorers using the highest quality parts and the proper jigs/gauges. Just like everyone's reloads are match quality.

Yep. 4198 and the .223 Remington/5.56 NATO go together like fat and a mother-in-law.

Over-lubing a gun is never a good thing, and provides no more lubrication quality than a thin film of oil.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

FROG lube is made from COCONUT oil.


All gun oils, lubes, solvents are "magical" Put a tiny amount in a small container, give it a catchy name, pay some "experts" to endorse it and make tons of money!


Kinda like Perfume for guns!


Many many oils have PTFE (Teflon) even when the carrier(solvent" has evaporated and the metal is "dry" the Teflon is there lubricating,


"She like to run wet" Just a bunch of buzz words


"Most experienced AR shooters run the gun wet."

What is that statement, cliche, based on?? Facts??



For the average range shooter, how many rounds are shot? Is it 3 round burst? Full auto?? Does the rifle run out of lube after 100 rounds, 500, 1000??

I don't claim to know the composition of Frog Lube but it would not surprise me to learn that the above statement is correct.

There have been a number of "high-tech" (properly read as "high dollar") specialized firearms lubricants marketed heavily in recent years, and some of those have been little more than canola oil, usually with colorants or fragrances added. Canola oil is produced from the seeds of the rape plant, widely cultivated in Canada; the marketing folks probably noted some market resistance to a product known as "rape oil" so the product name became "canola" (Canada oil). You probably have a quart bottle in your kitchen cabinet that cost about $2 retail, but the little 2-oz. bottles marketed as "super-duper whiz-bang firearms lubricant" at $5 or more ($80-plus per quart) still seem to be selling briskly to happy customers.

 

[Rule3]

I don't claim to know the composition of Frog Lube but it would not surprise me to learn that the above statement is correct.

There have been a number of "high-tech" (properly read as "high dollar") specialized firearms lubricants marketed heavily in recent years, and some of those have been little more than canola oil, usually with colorants or fragrances added. Canola oil is produced from the seeds of the rape plant, widely cultivated in Canada; the marketing folks probably noted some market resistance to a product known as "rape oil" so the product name became "canola" (Canada oil). You probably have a quart bottle in your kitchen cabinet that cost about $2 retail, but the little 2-oz. bottles marketed as "super-duper whiz-bang firearms lubricant" at $5 or more ($80-plus per quart) still seem to be selling briskly to happy customers.

"There is a customer born every minute"

The MSDS is virtually blank, non toxic food grade ingredients.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/aee514_64ab9e54fb0744129d8ad044ecd56dfc.pdf

Smoke point - Wikipedia


Here in Florida there are lots of frogs, we treat them with respect and keep a few at the range in wilderness habitats, when our AR's need lube we just grab one and rub it on the bolt , give it a treat and back to the pool.



Do a search for

Fake Science, BS, and your Favorite Gun Lube


not gonna post a link as there may be a bad word or two.

 

[rwsmith]

A coupla notes......

I was taken aback by the LGS price of IMR4895 so I ordered an 8# jug from Powder Valley. I saved $90 of the store price.

Whatever 'Frog Lube' is made of, it does well in comparative tests for lubricity and anti-rust properties. I have never used it, but I may pick some up to add to my lubing arsenal. I think it would be good on guns that I don't use that often.

That is a rare exception. I'm of the mind that 'oil' with a few properties for guns is what they need most.

 

[Rule3]

Whatever 'Frog Lube' is made of, it does well in comparative tests for lubricity and anti-rust properties. I have never used it, but I may pick some up to add to my lubing arsenal. I think it would be good on guns that I don't use that often.

That is a rare exception. I'm of the mind that 'oil' with a few properties for guns is what they need most.

Not really, here is one of the better reviews of "snake oils"


http://ronkulas.proboards.com/thread/274/review-comparison-gun-care-products



Isn't it amazing that high revving performance vehicles can go for thousands of miles on simple dinosaur and synthetic motor oils but guns require super secret expensive tonics.?? Of course there is much debate on what brand of motor oil is the best and all that.

 

[LVSteve]

Do a search for

Fake Science, BS, and your Favorite Gun Lube


not gonna post a link as there may be a bad word or two.

Gotta get me some of the UDL. I reckon that will solve more than my gun lube problems.

 

[Rule3]

Gotta get me some of the UDL. I reckon that will solve more than my gun lube problems.

Pretty funny article!


+P maybe even MAGNUM!