Which is lighter:
1. long recoil system (browning a-5)
2. gas system (remington 1100)
1. long recoil system (browning a-5)
2. gas system (remington 1100)
Shotgun Recoil
- Thread starter jimmyj
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All else being equal, the total recoil is equal, as anybody who passed physics can calculate.
However, the shooters perception of recoil is strongly affected by the SHARPNES of the recoil sensation, so anything that spreads the recoil over a longer time or reduces the peak impulse will make the PERCEPTION that the total recoil is less. That's why my 1100 feels like the recoil is less than my A5, with the same ammunition, and my Fox double feels like it is more.
However, the shooters perception of recoil is strongly affected by the SHARPNES of the recoil sensation, so anything that spreads the recoil over a longer time or reduces the peak impulse will make the PERCEPTION that the total recoil is less. That's why my 1100 feels like the recoil is less than my A5, with the same ammunition, and my Fox double feels like it is more.
I'm not an experienced shotgun shooter, but once upon a time, my friend and I went to the range with his 1100 and my A5. We shot some magnum 12 gauge 00 buck loads through each gun. I was shocked to find the 1100 had much, much less felt recoil than my A5!
Earlier this year, I bought an old, 1964 A5 12 gauge slug gun and I can tell you that slugs through this gun have a pretty stout recoil. But, the A5 is still my favorite shotgun bacause of it's beauty and the way it shoulders for me.
Earlier this year, I bought an old, 1964 A5 12 gauge slug gun and I can tell you that slugs through this gun have a pretty stout recoil. But, the A5 is still my favorite shotgun bacause of it's beauty and the way it shoulders for me.
The old A5 Browning uses a spring with friction bushings to reduce the recoil with the different types of ammo/loads used.
The newer Auto's use the gas and Piston system to operate the weapon and also reduce recoil.
The gas system will reduce the recoil better with all the bells and whistles that are built into the stock and barrel systems.......
but if set up correctly the old "Humpback" can be very enjoyable to shoot but most shooters do not have a clue on how to set them up with the bushings that come with the shotgun.
The newer Auto's use the gas and Piston system to operate the weapon and also reduce recoil.
The gas system will reduce the recoil better with all the bells and whistles that are built into the stock and barrel systems.......
but if set up correctly the old "Humpback" can be very enjoyable to shoot but most shooters do not have a clue on how to set them up with the bushings that come with the shotgun.
fiasconva
US Veteran
No contest! The 1100 is much lighter recoiling than the old A5 I have. With the right load that old A5 will loosen the fillings in your teeth. Both are 16 ga BTW. If you can find it, watch the video of ole Sarge in the Lock and Load show. He's shooting a 12 ga A5 with full house buckshot as fast as he can. That old A5 beat the heck out of him.
The friction ring set up in the A5 is to control the recoiling speed and force of the combination of the bbl and breech block upon firing.
You have only 2 combinations but they seem to work quite well.
(#3 if you count the one where you leave the friction ring out all together which is never recommended)
Those two components, barrel & breechblock, are locked together for the full rearward travel to the point where the bolt then gets locked back in place,,the bbl is released from it and the bbl then travels forward alone back to it's orig position.
(It's in this forward bbl travel/breech block locked to the rear that extraction/ejection occurs)
The recoil the shooter feels of the bbl&breech block coming to a stop in the rear most position can be quite severe if the friction ring assembly is not set up correctly.
Even when it is, firing a heavy load like a 1 1/4oz 12ga 2 3/4 load even with the rings set correctly simply runs all that mass rearward and then to a dead stop (felt recoil).
The double shuffle type recoil of the A5 shooters feel is the bbl then going forward on it's own and then stopping dead. At that instant the bolt is released from the rear position and it picks up the next round and chambers it. The bolt closing and locking in the breech is another sensation felt by the shooter.
All together many people simply say 'there's an awful lot going on there..'
The 1100 is a simple gas port bleed off system in the bbl.
The bbl never recoils, only the bolt and the simple lightweight bolt carrier.
The system only uses what gas pressure it needs to function the bolt rearward to eject, feed and load the next round,,no matter how light or heavy the rounds are.
Excess gas pressure simply bleeds off out of the skeletal bolt carrier and forearm. The shooter feels nothing more than necessary to function the gun for that load. Plus the absence of a heavy recoiling bbl as in the long recoil Browning system just naturally makes the gun easier on the shoulder.
Stock design (LOP, drop, comb width, ect) can have a lot to do with felt recoil as well. A poorly designed stock or one that simply doesn't fit a person even reasonably well can be a brute to fire even with lighter loads.
Add to that a gun that is built to be an ultra light weight. That can be a disaster to fire with most anything.
Nice to carry as they say, but no fun to fire.
You have only 2 combinations but they seem to work quite well.
(#3 if you count the one where you leave the friction ring out all together which is never recommended)
Those two components, barrel & breechblock, are locked together for the full rearward travel to the point where the bolt then gets locked back in place,,the bbl is released from it and the bbl then travels forward alone back to it's orig position.
(It's in this forward bbl travel/breech block locked to the rear that extraction/ejection occurs)
The recoil the shooter feels of the bbl&breech block coming to a stop in the rear most position can be quite severe if the friction ring assembly is not set up correctly.
Even when it is, firing a heavy load like a 1 1/4oz 12ga 2 3/4 load even with the rings set correctly simply runs all that mass rearward and then to a dead stop (felt recoil).
The double shuffle type recoil of the A5 shooters feel is the bbl then going forward on it's own and then stopping dead. At that instant the bolt is released from the rear position and it picks up the next round and chambers it. The bolt closing and locking in the breech is another sensation felt by the shooter.
All together many people simply say 'there's an awful lot going on there..'
The 1100 is a simple gas port bleed off system in the bbl.
The bbl never recoils, only the bolt and the simple lightweight bolt carrier.
The system only uses what gas pressure it needs to function the bolt rearward to eject, feed and load the next round,,no matter how light or heavy the rounds are.
Excess gas pressure simply bleeds off out of the skeletal bolt carrier and forearm. The shooter feels nothing more than necessary to function the gun for that load. Plus the absence of a heavy recoiling bbl as in the long recoil Browning system just naturally makes the gun easier on the shoulder.
Stock design (LOP, drop, comb width, ect) can have a lot to do with felt recoil as well. A poorly designed stock or one that simply doesn't fit a person even reasonably well can be a brute to fire even with lighter loads.
Add to that a gun that is built to be an ultra light weight. That can be a disaster to fire with most anything.
Nice to carry as they say, but no fun to fire.
For me the 1100 is much smoother, the "barrel shuffle" of the A5 is a distraction.....that said I do own my dad's old A5 20ga....but they're not for me....SX winchester is the way to go!
SweetMK
Member
Toss the Benelli M1 into the discussion,,
I can shoot this one,, one handed, not against my shoulder, it "pushes" less than my 629, even shooting #4 buckshot.
(That is not bragging, that is how nice the gun acts when it reloads)
The gun is recoil operated,, no gas tubes, etc,,
and it seems to cycle in about 1/10th the time that a 1100 takes.
I can shoot this one,, one handed, not against my shoulder, it "pushes" less than my 629, even shooting #4 buckshot.
(That is not bragging, that is how nice the gun acts when it reloads)
The gun is recoil operated,, no gas tubes, etc,,
and it seems to cycle in about 1/10th the time that a 1100 takes.
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I've shot Trap for 30+ years. I strarted with the Remington 870 and migrated to the Remington 1100 Trap. A few years ago, I acquired a Remington 1100 Synthetic Competition. With the spring recoil reduction system, it is a very "soft" shooting gun.
RobertJ.
Member
I recently bought a Remington 1100, but I haven't compared it directly yet to my Remington Model 11 (Remington's version of the A5).
Years ago, however, I tested my 870 alongside my friend's brand new Benelli M4, and we were both amazed at the reduction in felt recoil that the gas-operated gun had over the pump action.
Years ago, however, I tested my 870 alongside my friend's brand new Benelli M4, and we were both amazed at the reduction in felt recoil that the gas-operated gun had over the pump action.
SweetMK
Member
I was just reading about the Benelli M4
Benelli added gas operation to the M1, as a backup in case too many "EXTRAS" are bolted to the gun.
The gas operation backup was needed to meet a govt contract requirement.
The M4 and M1 operate identically, without two flashlights, a Red Dot, Red Dot Magnifier, and bayonet bolted on,,
Add all that weight, the Benelli needs the gas operation as a backup to insure there is enough energy to cycle the gun.
I think if you put the butt of the M1 against a brick wall rather than your shoulder, the M1 does not cycle reliably,,
The A5 does have double shuffle recoil but in good repair and set for the right load doesn't kick anymore than 1100. I got both.
If you shoot a lot of trap or any "Clay Games"...............
It does not take long for you to learn what recoil is like in different styles of shotguns.
Any SxS or Over & Under or Pump shotgun will transfer 100% of it's recoil and only the weight of the gun, stock fit, recoil pad and the Dram of the load and payload will tell the amount of recoil that the shooter will receive.
As mentioned, spring or gas systems will greatly reduce the amount of recoil for the shooter, however, these systems do need "Energy" to make the system work and if the loads are too light......
the hull will not eject or will stove pipe in the weapon.
My 391 gas needs 8,000 PSI for it to eject a light skeet load, where my 12 Ga. O/U will shoot a 7/8 oz. load at only 1145 fps
that is not even listed in my load books.
"Scatter guns" are a fun addition to shooting if you have them.
You don't always need to kill live game, to have a fun day in the field.
As for recoil, yes, I have shot a 1.5 oz. lead load at 1320fps rated at 4 Drams !!
It does not take long for you to learn what recoil is like in different styles of shotguns.
Any SxS or Over & Under or Pump shotgun will transfer 100% of it's recoil and only the weight of the gun, stock fit, recoil pad and the Dram of the load and payload will tell the amount of recoil that the shooter will receive.
As mentioned, spring or gas systems will greatly reduce the amount of recoil for the shooter, however, these systems do need "Energy" to make the system work and if the loads are too light......
the hull will not eject or will stove pipe in the weapon.
My 391 gas needs 8,000 PSI for it to eject a light skeet load, where my 12 Ga. O/U will shoot a 7/8 oz. load at only 1145 fps
that is not even listed in my load books.
"Scatter guns" are a fun addition to shooting if you have them.
You don't always need to kill live game, to have a fun day in the field.
As for recoil, yes, I have shot a 1.5 oz. lead load at 1320fps rated at 4 Drams !!
I can feel an A5 kick twice and then jump forward. If I wanted to shoot an auto it would be a Beretta. Larry
StrawHat
Member
THE PILGRIM
Member
Have owned both, but not at the same time.
Lighter perceived recoil - It's the REM 1100.
Way back, in my Puppy Dog Days have shot family owned REM 11 and 1148.
Lighter perceived recoil - It's the REM 1100.
Way back, in my Puppy Dog Days have shot family owned REM 11 and 1148.
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The Remington has a little less felt recoil, however the Browning A5 is not bad either. You need to be sure that the Brass Friction Ring is positioned properly for the loads you are shooting. Forward (muzzle end) for heavy loads and rearward for light loads. Don't forget to reverse the steel ring's bevel when switching positions.
Luckily when Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clay shooting with light target loads, my A5 shoots just fine (no jams at all) with the Friction Ring in the position for heavy loads so that the gun is even softer recoiling. Try it - the ring will be in the most forward position (closer to the muzzle for heavy loads). If you get failures then you will have to move it rearward (where it was designed to be) and recoil will be slightly more.
I've told many of my friends that have A5's to try it and 90% of the time they work fine. Once in a while they don't. There is a noticeable reduction of recoil so it's worth trying.
Luckily when Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clay shooting with light target loads, my A5 shoots just fine (no jams at all) with the Friction Ring in the position for heavy loads so that the gun is even softer recoiling. Try it - the ring will be in the most forward position (closer to the muzzle for heavy loads). If you get failures then you will have to move it rearward (where it was designed to be) and recoil will be slightly more.
I've told many of my friends that have A5's to try it and 90% of the time they work fine. Once in a while they don't. There is a noticeable reduction of recoil so it's worth trying.
fiasconva
US Veteran
I can remember shooting my grandfather's 16 ga A5 when I was around 14 or 15. It was probably set up for low brass shells rather than high brass ones. When you weigh about 100 lbs soaking wet shooting those high brass shells in that thing made quite an impression.
ggibson511960
Member
1911 SL Physics
As OKFC05 correctly pointed out, because of Newtonian physics all shotguns recoil the same, shot weight, gun weight, and shot velocity being equal, but it is nevertheless remarkable how delivery time affects perceived recoil. I've shot all the guns noted above with the same perceptions. The one that takes the cake for me is a Winchester 1911 SL. This beast employs a long recoil system with pitiful buffers. The gun is actually trim and light compared to a Browning A5 (Remington 11), but upon discharge kicks four times like an Army mule; first on firing, second on barrel and bolt impacting the rear receiver, third in reverse on the barrel bashing back into battery, and fourth when the bolt and fresh shell slam into the breech. The poor thing regularly cracks stocks made of stout laminated hardwood. My grandfather's 1911 SL is a treasured keepsake that is admired in idle retirement.
As OKFC05 correctly pointed out, because of Newtonian physics all shotguns recoil the same, shot weight, gun weight, and shot velocity being equal, but it is nevertheless remarkable how delivery time affects perceived recoil. I've shot all the guns noted above with the same perceptions. The one that takes the cake for me is a Winchester 1911 SL. This beast employs a long recoil system with pitiful buffers. The gun is actually trim and light compared to a Browning A5 (Remington 11), but upon discharge kicks four times like an Army mule; first on firing, second on barrel and bolt impacting the rear receiver, third in reverse on the barrel bashing back into battery, and fourth when the bolt and fresh shell slam into the breech. The poor thing regularly cracks stocks made of stout laminated hardwood. My grandfather's 1911 SL is a treasured keepsake that is admired in idle retirement.
If you shoot a lot of trap or any "Clay Games"...............
""""""It does not take long for you to learn what recoil is like in different styles of shotguns.
Any SxS or Over & Under or Pump shotgun will transfer 100% of it's recoil and only the weight of the gun, stock fit, recoil pad and the Dram of the load and payload will tell the amount of recoil that the shooter will receive."""""
I have shot a few hundred thousand 12ga trap loads. I do not use auto loading guns, because I just do not like the feel of them when the system operates.
Ed's statement above is spot on. 2 things kill recoil, weight and proper stock fit. To a degree the correct recoil pad helps also. The first and most important part of shotgun recoil reduction is proper stock fit. This requires the services of a professional stock maker. There is no one size fits all stock, and adjustable stocks are worse yet. Every time you fiddle with the dimensions of the stock, you are shooting a new gun..
Next thing is add weight. Brass plugs in semi autos. fill stock removal holes with #9 lead shot then replace recoil pad. Mercury plugs in o/u guns when only one bbl if used. I have taped brass bar stock to the underside of a bbl to kill recoil.
It's not a fashion show, it is about breaking targets
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