Sig is still having issues with the P320 trigger?

[Casper59]

IMHO, this issue only existed in “some” P320s made prior to 2017. See the Sig link for details from Sig.

P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER

The P320® Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost.

www.sigsauer.com

 

[Kimberpross]

It is because the "problem" is anecdotal. When you consider all of the people who claim that the gun "just went off" you also have to consider all the the people who have seen Bigfoot, Nessie, or have been abducted by little green men from another planet.

Alec Baldwin’s SA Colt fired all by itself!

 

[white cloud]

Don't forget that the Army just went with a new SIG battle rifle and machine gun. Someone in DOD must be very rich.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

I have a M-17, which as far as I know does not suffer from the unknown malady. My thought about this is that it has a thumb safety so it's much harder to fire accidentally. Up until recently all of my striker fired handguns had thumb safety's. Not long ago I worked as an Armed Security Guard, the company specified Glocks as the designated carry firearm. I refused to carry a Glock and told them that I would quit if I had to carry one. My choice was an Sig M-17, which they attempted to thwart by requiring that the carry firearm be black. At the cost of an additional $200 I was able to purchase a black M-17 from a dealer who had one left over from when Sig made M-17s in black. Since they supplied Glock holsters I was on my own and easily found a Level II holster for the Sig. During the required training the instructor, unaware of my 30 years in the Army and being a Military as well as NRA firearms instructor warned me about forgetting to click off the safety prior to shooting. I won't go into the issues about an instructor not checking on the background of the students prior to starting training. During the draw and fire portion of the training there was an incident of one of the students prematurely firing his Glock, fortunately into the ground due to placing his finger on the trigger prior to being ready to shoot. I kept quiet about the issues of the trigger safety. The instructor noted that I was able to draw and fire accurately much faster than the others. My hits found their designated mark for every exercise. He noticed that I was shooting much more accurately than the others. When he asked about why I was able to shoot much more accurately than the others I simply said, "I'm not shooting a Glock." He took immediate offense to that remark and challenged me to a match to prove his point that a Glock was not as accurate as my Sig. I specified the match to be from 25 yards, well beyond the syllabus range of 10 yards. I wont go into details, but he lost, not because I was a better shooter, but because the Glock is not as accurate as other handguns.

**and then everyone cheered**

Walter Mitty for the win!

 

[Terry G]

I have the P320 and 320 Compact so I have been very interested in these "Goes off all by itself." My Wife bought my two for my Birthday last year so mine were made, as far as I can tell, in 2023. As far as I can determine a few if these self firing incidents may have been from a certain lot made in 2016. I don't know. I do know that Glocks years back had a reputation for doing the same "Untouched" firing. A guy I know left Federal Service and became a Deputy Sherriff. He was issued a Glock 21 and a few weeks later his Glock "Went off in the holster" and the bullet entered and exited his calf. He swore up and down the gun went off as he was holstering it. It did. His dash cam clearly showed him holstering the gun with his finger in the trigger guard. He shot himself. My Sigs are range guns, but I wouldn't be afraid to carry either. So what do you think? A bad lot of pistols or negligence?

 

[lightstar_actual]

My son's Agency just notified him that "the SIG P320 is no longer authorized for use." To say he's pissed is an understatement, not because the firearm is of dubious repute currently, but because of his investment in non-reimbursed holsters, of which he's spent a couple of thousand dollars on. Sending him a new in-the-box Springfield Marine Corps Operator as a replacement. My personal opinion on the P320, and I do not own one, is, where there's smoke, there's fire.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

My son's Agency just notified him that "the SIG P320 is no longer authorized for use." To say he's pissed is an understatement, not because the firearm is of dubious repute currently, but because of his investment in non-reimbursed holsters, of which he's spent a couple of thousand dollars on. Sending him a new in-the-box Springfield Marine Corps Operator as a replacement. My personal opinion on the P320, and I do not own one, is, where there's smoke, there's fire.

Who in their right mind spends a couple of thousand dollars on holsters? For that amount one should be able to equip a mid size police department with Level 2 holsters for just about any pistol.

 

[CRT2]

Charter Arms Terminator

Also, I have purchased some Russian .44 spl and some cowboy loads to try in the CA "Terminator".
Does anybody have any experience with the cowboy loads in comparison to standard loads?

My son's Agency just notified him that "the SIG P320 is no longer authorized for use." To say he's pissed is an understatement, not because the firearm is of dubious repute currently, but because of his investment in non-reimbursed holsters, of which he's spent a couple of thousand dollars on. Sending him a new in-the-box Springfield Marine Corps Operator as a replacement. My personal opinion on the P320, and I do not own one, is, where there's smoke, there's fire.

Facts not opinions. Quote should be “where there is smoke, there’s $$$.

 

[lightstar_actual]

Who in their right mind spends a couple of thousand dollars on holsters? For that amount one should be able to equip a mid size police department with Level 2 holsters for just about any pistol.

Are you on the job? Ever been on the job?

 

[65-2x2]

Sure. Here’s a DoD safety incident report of a USMC-involved discharge with safety on and in holster. For what it is worth, I have placed my strongside hand on top of a SLS hood at least hundreds of times. https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463aa80d/marine-corps-2023-02-14.pdf

As another factual statement, the DoD’s M17/18 pre-service testing found issues in the drop test and SIG changed the trigger mechanism mid-test to reduce uncommanded firing. US Army documentation: Access Denied

Those finding were based upon witness statements, it is not a scientific conclusion.

 

[HardToHandle]

Those finding were based upon witness statements, it is not a scientific conclusion.

Perhaps you can define what is “scientific” in regards to pistol testing. Or suggest a verified testing regimen. That might help move decision making forward.

The P320 failed the U.S. Army drop testing which, while controlled testing, likely isn’t “scientific” either. But the Army testing did find the P320 design failed again and again and again. Here’s what the Mattis-era Office of Secretary of Defense had to say: https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2017/army/2017mhs.pdf

Traditionally science is observationally based, but we can always just move goalposts if the evidence doesn’t fit a preconceived opinion.

 

[eclayton]

Those finding were based upon witness statements, it is not a scientific conclusion.

From the Marine Corps Camp Foster investigation findings linked in the post you replied to: “After reviewing the security camera footage, the mishap investigator concluded that P1 did not mishandle the weapon at any time while on duty at Gate 1 prior to the weapon discharging. From the evidence and statements of the persons involved, it is apparent that the weapon fired while on safe and secured in the holster.”

The incident was captured on video. The security guard was checking IDs of motorists entering the base and his location is covered by 24/7 video surveillance. The cameras are intentionally positioned to record the interaction between the sentry and the driver; in other words, pointed right at the sentry whose pistol went off. Witness statements were taken, of course; that is what investigators do. The statements corroborated what the video showed. Furthermore the evidence was immediately secured (also on camera) and the fired weapon recovered, still in the holster and untouched by the carrier after it fired.

I spent 25 years in the Marine Corps, and personally witnessed, read investigation reports, or conducted non-judicial punishment for dozens of negligent discharges. The Marine Corps takes a dim view of NDs and loves to crucify those who cause them. I’ve heard every excuse in the book about how the weapon somehow just went off, and never in my career saw any case ruled in the Marine’s favor. This single instance in Okinawa went the other way due to incontrovertible evidence exonerating the security guard.

 

[3/4Flap]

From the Marine Corps Camp Foster investigation findings linked in the post you replied to: “After reviewing the security camera footage, the mishap investigator concluded that P1 did not mishandle the weapon at any time while on duty at Gate 1 prior to the weapon discharging. From the evidence and statements of the persons involved, it is apparent that the weapon fired while on safe and secured in the holster.”

The incident was captured on video. The security guard was checking IDs of motorists entering the base and his location is covered by 24/7 video surveillance. The cameras are intentionally positioned to record the interaction between the sentry and the driver; in other words, pointed right at the sentry whose pistol went off. Witness statements were taken, of course; that is what investigators do. The statements corroborated what the video showed. Furthermore the evidence was immediately secured (also on camera) and the fired weapon recovered, still in the holster and untouched by the carrier after it fired.

I spent 25 years in the Marine Corps, and personally witnessed, read investigation reports, or conducted non-judicial punishment for dozens of negligent discharges. The Marine Corps takes a dim view of NDs and loves to crucify those who cause them. I’ve heard every excuse in the book about how the weapon somehow just went off, and never in my career saw any case ruled in the Marine’s favor. This single instance in Okinawa went the other way due to incontrovertible evidence exonerating the security guard.

Very interesting.
I suppose the following is unlikely to be available to the public but do you know what the maintenance history of the pistol was?
I had several P250's.
I consider that pistol to be an excellent pistol, its one unforgivable sin being its (excellent) DA pull which garnered it a reputation of being difficult to shoot. I imagine that might have been true in some service issues where range time and skills are not adequate. I found the pistols phenomenally accurate, used them for small game shooting, etc.
Reason I wax on about the P250 is that I always wondered how SIG could take a platform like that and literally using the exact same plastic frame, subsequently cobble together a completely different mechanism to fit it. This and with the P250 getting a rep for being difficult to shoot well, went whole hog the other direction and stuck what amounts to a target trigger on the thing as well. Just looking at the mechanism had me scratching my head. I had several P320's and frankly, had concerns about them from the gitgo even assuming the mechanism was not prone to any mechanical problems leading to unintentional discharge.
All that to say I do wonder about the P320 as a SERVICE pistol being treated as service pistols are, w/ potentially less-than-optimal maintenance skills of low echelon armorers, etc.
If Bruce Gray has apparently figured out a way to make the thing go Bang w/o meaning to, and even if that involves a series of steps unlikely to be duplicated in the field or caused by improper maintenance, I pay attention, and have to wonder if parts tolerance, wear, possibly improper fitting and or parts themselves could on a gun let's face it that in service is not necessarily treated like a range toy, could add up to a related but somewhat different set of conditions leading to the dreaded "uncommanded discharge".

 

[eclayton]

Very interesting.
I suppose the following is unlikely to be available to the public but do you know what the maintenance history of the pistol was?

The investigation report did address that. The pistol underwent routine maintenance by an armory tech in November 2022, about three months before the mishap. The weapon was found serviceable and the maintenance interval was within standard. After the discharge, it was inspected again and passed the same inspection standards.

I don’t pretend to know what is going on inside these pistols. I suspect you or I could load up and carry that very same M18, maybe for years, and it probably wouldn’t fire again in the holster. There was a something complex going on between internal pistol parts, holsters, and individual movements and actions that may defy replication. The ones declaring “reproduce it in the lab, or it didn’t happen” are not helping SIG or the P320’s reputation. Something clearly DID happen, it wasn’t user error, and instead of blaming holster makers or users I hope SIG develops an additional safety measure that can be retrofitted.