This question is from an old-school S&W revolver guy, with no red dot handguns until now. I just installed a Holosun on my M&P 40L PC and cannot seem to get it sighted in correctly. The only way I can achieve any accuracy is to align the red dot with both the front and rear sights, ie, aligning three points instead of two (iron sights). What am I missing? How should a red dot be sighted in for the most effectiveness?
Sighting In A Red Dot
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Don't try to align the dot with the iron sights. You'll need to sight in on the range. Note that with your setup now, you can move your head and the seeming alignment between the dot and the sights moves. That's because the dot "floats." When you're sighted in on the range, you can put that dot anywhere in the window and shoot.
OP
Thanks, Krogen. Yes, that is exactly the problem I have experienced. But, I can't seem to sight the red dot in any other way.
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Google sighting in a red dot and you will get some good instruction.
Find one that has a printable target for sighting it in where the boxes equal clicks on the sight.
Sandbag the pistol and make adjustments shooting 3 round groups. Walk the site in and get it zeroed. Do this at 10 to 12 yards and you should be good.
Then test it out to 25 to ensure it hits in the area.
Good luck.
Find one that has a printable target for sighting it in where the boxes equal clicks on the sight.
Sandbag the pistol and make adjustments shooting 3 round groups. Walk the site in and get it zeroed. Do this at 10 to 12 yards and you should be good.
Then test it out to 25 to ensure it hits in the area.
Good luck.
Excellent advice above. Let us know how the sighting in goes.
LittleCooner
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ultratec00
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Sighting in a red dot is no different than sighting in a scope. Need to go supported and off a bench to sight it in. You can use a boresighter and align the dot to the laser, which will get you on the paper, then fine tune from there.
I'm not too impressed with the polymer plates smith provides with their optics ready firearms. On a whim I swapped out the polymer adapter plate with a CH Precision aluminum plate on my M&P PC 10mm and observed noticeable improved grouping.
Shooting a red dot is a whole different ballgame from iron sights. The goodness is a red dot eliminates the need to align a rear/front sight. You'll never get that red dot to stop moving and don't try. Trigger control is key. Recommend you spend some time getting used to shooting a red dot on a 22 first before going to a centerfire.
Also keep in mind you need to check the torque periodically because they can come loose. Out of habit, I'll hit the screws with a torque wrench after every range session.
I'm not too impressed with the polymer plates smith provides with their optics ready firearms. On a whim I swapped out the polymer adapter plate with a CH Precision aluminum plate on my M&P PC 10mm and observed noticeable improved grouping.
Shooting a red dot is a whole different ballgame from iron sights. The goodness is a red dot eliminates the need to align a rear/front sight. You'll never get that red dot to stop moving and don't try. Trigger control is key. Recommend you spend some time getting used to shooting a red dot on a 22 first before going to a centerfire.
Also keep in mind you need to check the torque periodically because they can come loose. Out of habit, I'll hit the screws with a torque wrench after every range session.
Gun Geezer
Member
When using a red dot, do not look at the dot. Focus on the target and superimpose the dot over your point of aim. Red dot sights allow you to do what God or nature intended you to do and that is Focus on the target. Those of us that grew up with iron sights were taught to go against nature and Focus on our iron sites because that was the only available technology at the time. It will take a little time to learn to go back to a target Focus but, it is well worth it. Also, the dot is going to continuously move because nobody, except the dead, are perfectly still.
SoCalDep
Member
As has been mentioned, the pistol optic (red dot) is an independent sighting system. Don’t attempt to use it in conjunction with iron sights.
I like to have iron sights visible in the bottom of the window in case of an unlikely optic malfunction, but they are ignored completely except for that event.
I’ll first talk about how to think about a pistol optic, because it’s very not like shooting pistol iron sights.
Rule #1 - The dot is independent.
If you’re trying to see the dot with your front or rear or both sights you’re doing it very wrong. The cool thing about the dot is that when you’re going fast… and when you’re REALLY going fast… you don’t see the optic…or the gun… you see a dot or a streak of light that passes into the acceptable target… and everything else disappears between you and the target… It doesn’t matter if the dot is in the upper left or lower rear corner of the optic window, because the dot tells you where the bullet will go if you do right by it. For all practical purposes, with a properly zeroed dot, if you do right, the round goes where the dot is regardless of where the dot is in the window.
Rule #2 - Both eyes open.
If you can’t do this yet, bring the pistol (and dot) on target with an eye closed, and once there, open both eyes… vision will change, but you should be able to identify the “correct” visual reference of the dot on the target. If not, you have some dominance or other issue and you probably need some formal training. If you can, then great. Practice until you can bring the gun on target with both eyes open and see the dot superimposed on the target. There’s much more to this but I’m trying to keep it short. A good optic class will cover this. Keep both eyes open.
Rule #3 - Target Focus
Traditional pistol shooting tells us to focus on the front sight, but this is not the case with an optic. Focus on the target.
In fact, the dot will tempt you to focus on it… and it will smite you! Look at the target, and “see” the dot on the target. We often would draw letters or numbers or symbols on a target and tell the shooter to focus on that and simply see the dot superimposed on the very focused thing. When zeroing, this is super hard for me, and requires a ton of mental concentration… likely from years on iron sights. Look at the target and see the dot.
Before I hit rule number 4, which I think is really important for a new dot shooter, I’ll address some technical zero things.
If you’re zeroing at a particular distance, you’ll need to shoot a good group (I like five shots), Aiming at a specific spot (ideally the dot should be in the middle of the window as that negates the minimal parallax issues so why not when fine tuning) regardless of impact, then determine where that group is from your point of aim. It might be that you’re doing something wrong and your group is a result of moving the gun prior to the shot. You can adjust for that, or you can work to correct that… but that’s a whole different discussion. Let’s assume you’re doing it right. You have a supported position, maybe you’ve bagged it, or you have a lot of experience and you know what you know.
Adjusting a dot is like adjusting a scope. You’re going to move the adjustments in the direction you want the bullet to go. If your rounds hit 2 inches right, you want to adjust 2 inches left to meet your point of aim. In the case of the Holosun, we found that the advertised adjustments were very much estimates. We said that it was generally 6-7 clicks per inch for 15 yards and 4ish clicks per inch at 25yds, but one optic could vary from another, so it might take one or two strings to see what the adjustments did to really get a good zero.
Rule #4 - Dot Acquisition is much more “feel” than “vision”.
This isn’t a zero thing. This is a practical thing. We spent decades teaching the wrong thing… yep… I said it. Front sight focus was the old-guy log jam to what really gets sights on target fast… and that’s body movement. I won’t go into the 50-cent words, though I very much can about how we learn to do motor movements, and I’ll focus on the basics for pistol optics.
Your visual perception of the sights occurs at the very end of the presentation to the target, whether from the holster or a ready position. Getting the sights/sight into that “perception zone” is the responsibility of muscle groups controlled by the central nervous system. There is no “muscle memory” but there is myelination, which is the nervous system’s control on the body’s actions. I said I wouldn’t do 50-cent words, so - sorry…
Even so, with iron sights, there is a very “rough” index earlier than when a dot would come into view - not accurate, but perceptive, and people who have big targets combined with close distances perceive irons as faster, especially when new to the dot, because new is harder and sometimes because they have a bias. This hampers improvement and fosters excuses for sub-par performance.
While this may be tempting, ignore it. Work on building the “feel” of the pistol being in, and coming into the right spot for your eyes to see the dot.. which, at close range may only be a streak of light. Once you master this, irons are boomer class. It may take a really good dot class or two, but once you get there, it’s an epiphany.
Ultimately, a trained dot shooter is more accurate and faster than iron sights. This has been pretty much proven over the shooting sports and by professionals who care. I say that because you’re on the right track. Keep working and it will pay dividends.
I say all this as someone who has trained a lot of people to use a dot, and who carries a dot sometimes, and who carries (now that I’m retired and get to carry much based on enthusiasm) mostly iron sighted 1911s… but knows he’s better with a dot.
I like to have iron sights visible in the bottom of the window in case of an unlikely optic malfunction, but they are ignored completely except for that event.
I’ll first talk about how to think about a pistol optic, because it’s very not like shooting pistol iron sights.
Rule #1 - The dot is independent.
If you’re trying to see the dot with your front or rear or both sights you’re doing it very wrong. The cool thing about the dot is that when you’re going fast… and when you’re REALLY going fast… you don’t see the optic…or the gun… you see a dot or a streak of light that passes into the acceptable target… and everything else disappears between you and the target… It doesn’t matter if the dot is in the upper left or lower rear corner of the optic window, because the dot tells you where the bullet will go if you do right by it. For all practical purposes, with a properly zeroed dot, if you do right, the round goes where the dot is regardless of where the dot is in the window.
Rule #2 - Both eyes open.
If you can’t do this yet, bring the pistol (and dot) on target with an eye closed, and once there, open both eyes… vision will change, but you should be able to identify the “correct” visual reference of the dot on the target. If not, you have some dominance or other issue and you probably need some formal training. If you can, then great. Practice until you can bring the gun on target with both eyes open and see the dot superimposed on the target. There’s much more to this but I’m trying to keep it short. A good optic class will cover this. Keep both eyes open.
Rule #3 - Target Focus
Traditional pistol shooting tells us to focus on the front sight, but this is not the case with an optic. Focus on the target.
In fact, the dot will tempt you to focus on it… and it will smite you! Look at the target, and “see” the dot on the target. We often would draw letters or numbers or symbols on a target and tell the shooter to focus on that and simply see the dot superimposed on the very focused thing. When zeroing, this is super hard for me, and requires a ton of mental concentration… likely from years on iron sights. Look at the target and see the dot.
Before I hit rule number 4, which I think is really important for a new dot shooter, I’ll address some technical zero things.
If you’re zeroing at a particular distance, you’ll need to shoot a good group (I like five shots), Aiming at a specific spot (ideally the dot should be in the middle of the window as that negates the minimal parallax issues so why not when fine tuning) regardless of impact, then determine where that group is from your point of aim. It might be that you’re doing something wrong and your group is a result of moving the gun prior to the shot. You can adjust for that, or you can work to correct that… but that’s a whole different discussion. Let’s assume you’re doing it right. You have a supported position, maybe you’ve bagged it, or you have a lot of experience and you know what you know.
Adjusting a dot is like adjusting a scope. You’re going to move the adjustments in the direction you want the bullet to go. If your rounds hit 2 inches right, you want to adjust 2 inches left to meet your point of aim. In the case of the Holosun, we found that the advertised adjustments were very much estimates. We said that it was generally 6-7 clicks per inch for 15 yards and 4ish clicks per inch at 25yds, but one optic could vary from another, so it might take one or two strings to see what the adjustments did to really get a good zero.
Rule #4 - Dot Acquisition is much more “feel” than “vision”.
This isn’t a zero thing. This is a practical thing. We spent decades teaching the wrong thing… yep… I said it. Front sight focus was the old-guy log jam to what really gets sights on target fast… and that’s body movement. I won’t go into the 50-cent words, though I very much can about how we learn to do motor movements, and I’ll focus on the basics for pistol optics.
Your visual perception of the sights occurs at the very end of the presentation to the target, whether from the holster or a ready position. Getting the sights/sight into that “perception zone” is the responsibility of muscle groups controlled by the central nervous system. There is no “muscle memory” but there is myelination, which is the nervous system’s control on the body’s actions. I said I wouldn’t do 50-cent words, so - sorry…
Even so, with iron sights, there is a very “rough” index earlier than when a dot would come into view - not accurate, but perceptive, and people who have big targets combined with close distances perceive irons as faster, especially when new to the dot, because new is harder and sometimes because they have a bias. This hampers improvement and fosters excuses for sub-par performance.
While this may be tempting, ignore it. Work on building the “feel” of the pistol being in, and coming into the right spot for your eyes to see the dot.. which, at close range may only be a streak of light. Once you master this, irons are boomer class. It may take a really good dot class or two, but once you get there, it’s an epiphany.
Ultimately, a trained dot shooter is more accurate and faster than iron sights. This has been pretty much proven over the shooting sports and by professionals who care. I say that because you’re on the right track. Keep working and it will pay dividends.
I say all this as someone who has trained a lot of people to use a dot, and who carries a dot sometimes, and who carries (now that I’m retired and get to carry much based on enthusiasm) mostly iron sighted 1911s… but knows he’s better with a dot.
coltle6920
Member
K.I.S.S.
Using just the iron sights where is your alignment for best accuracy? Is it a six o'clock hold on the bullseye or something else? Once you find that point, looking through the iron sights, set the red dot over the front sight where the bullseye once was. Make sure you don't make aggressive adjustments in moving the red dot or you'll end up with the dot out in left field with no coming back. Small adjustments!
Using just the iron sights where is your alignment for best accuracy? Is it a six o'clock hold on the bullseye or something else? Once you find that point, looking through the iron sights, set the red dot over the front sight where the bullseye once was. Make sure you don't make aggressive adjustments in moving the red dot or you'll end up with the dot out in left field with no coming back. Small adjustments!
Indeed....
The open sights on the gun play no part in what a red dot does. Completely ignore them. You should be abie to look at the target (at the sight in distance) and the dot will fall right where the bullet is going to hit. No parallax. As long as the dot is on the place you want to hit, that is where the bullet goes. Of course at longer and shorter ranges you may have to use 'Kentucky elevation' to compensate for the sight being above the barrel as well as bullet rise and fall.
You can CO-witness the open sights (if you can still see both of them with the red dot mounted) by either using the red dot as an aiming point as was mentioned above, or ignoring the red dot and adjusting them independently. When you are done the red dot and the open sights should agree at the distance that they are sighted in.
I think red dots are better than lasers. Lasers quiver and shake around and are good for quick target aquisition, but LOUSY for the range unless you pull up the gun quick and shoot. A red dot is a steady little speck of light.
I have a Vortex Crossfire red dot on my AR. It's not an expensive one but it works like a champ.
The open sights on the gun play no part in what a red dot does. Completely ignore them. You should be abie to look at the target (at the sight in distance) and the dot will fall right where the bullet is going to hit. No parallax. As long as the dot is on the place you want to hit, that is where the bullet goes. Of course at longer and shorter ranges you may have to use 'Kentucky elevation' to compensate for the sight being above the barrel as well as bullet rise and fall.
You can CO-witness the open sights (if you can still see both of them with the red dot mounted) by either using the red dot as an aiming point as was mentioned above, or ignoring the red dot and adjusting them independently. When you are done the red dot and the open sights should agree at the distance that they are sighted in.
I think red dots are better than lasers. Lasers quiver and shake around and are good for quick target aquisition, but LOUSY for the range unless you pull up the gun quick and shoot. A red dot is a steady little speck of light.
I have a Vortex Crossfire red dot on my AR. It's not an expensive one but it works like a champ.
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45Smashemflat
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The other tip is to dial the dot down to as low a power as you can see while zeroing. Makes for a smaller dot and a more precise zero.
minconrevo
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A solid mount of your red dot to the gun is essential. Degrease the screw holes and the screws too; I use acetone on a Q-tip. A good bit of BLUE Lok-Tite on the screw is necessary. The blue stuff that comes on the screws from the factory usually doesn't work well. In a very few cases, a tiny bit of red Lok-Tite may be necessary instead of blue. If you don't have access to an accurate torque screwdriver you may wish you did. The typical T-10 screw needs 10-15 inch pounds, with the probability being 15. The factory screws with the red dot may appear to be Allen type, but they are probably Torx. Take a pic of the screw head with your phone camera, then expand to verify what it is. Let Lok-Tite set overnight to be sure it's cured out before handling gun.
If you can handle the "two eyes open" method of aiming, then by all means do so. I simply cannot, so I get to do the single eye open. I know I am loosing some peripheral vision due to that.
Several have offered good methods to zero in this thread.
When shooting quickly with a red dot, you will have to accept that the red ball WILL bounce. As long as your shots break when the ball is in an acceptable locale on the target you will be fine.
Red dots are great in low light. In dim/no light, you are going to need a flashlight, likely a weapon mounted light, to go with your gun. It's a whole new world then and some training/familiarization is in order.
If you can handle the "two eyes open" method of aiming, then by all means do so. I simply cannot, so I get to do the single eye open. I know I am loosing some peripheral vision due to that.
Several have offered good methods to zero in this thread.
When shooting quickly with a red dot, you will have to accept that the red ball WILL bounce. As long as your shots break when the ball is in an acceptable locale on the target you will be fine.
Red dots are great in low light. In dim/no light, you are going to need a flashlight, likely a weapon mounted light, to go with your gun. It's a whole new world then and some training/familiarization is in order.
SweetMK
Member
I bought a red dot for a rifle
but, I decided to try it on a handgun,,
It stayed on the handgun ($35 with free shipping ,,IIRC)
There is no concern about co-witnessing this red dot with iron sites,,
Other than a Leupold 2X scope,, this is my FAVORITE sighting tool.
(and, yes, I have an Ultra-Dot on another handgun)
but, I decided to try it on a handgun,,
It stayed on the handgun ($35 with free shipping ,,IIRC)
There is no concern about co-witnessing this red dot with iron sites,,
Other than a Leupold 2X scope,, this is my FAVORITE sighting tool.
(and, yes, I have an Ultra-Dot on another handgun)
ultratec00
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Another thing when adjusting red dots, most have click adjustments, but they have a tendency to settle. With rifle scopes 1 click typically means .25" @ 100 yards. With red dots, you can adjust the dot and the POI will move, but may take a minute to settle, especially if the adjustment is multiple clicks.
Pisgah
Member
The general shooting populace today has no clue how to use either a peep sight on a rifle or a red dot on a handgun. Don't look at the aperture of a peep, and don't look at a red dot! Look at the target, both eyes open, when the dot is on target, shoot.
gwpercle
Member
My red dot sights are mounted on a Model 64 S&W , 38 special , and a Ruger MKII Standard Stainless 22LR ... both have Millet SP-1 Red Dot sights - w/ 3 MOA dots .
I can't even see the sights when using the red dots ...
Just put the Red Dot on what I want to hit ... and squeeze the trigger !
The bullet hits right on the red dot .
Back in the day mounting them wasn't easy ... I had Clark Custom Guns in Louisiana mount them for me ... and do a trigger job !
SWEET ... them boy's know their way around a handgun !
Gary
I can't even see the sights when using the red dots ...
Just put the Red Dot on what I want to hit ... and squeeze the trigger !
The bullet hits right on the red dot .
Back in the day mounting them wasn't easy ... I had Clark Custom Guns in Louisiana mount them for me ... and do a trigger job !
SWEET ... them boy's know their way around a handgun !
Gary
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As noted above, you can co-witness the red dot with the iron sights. However, once sighted in, the beauty of the dot is that if you can see the dot, that's where the bullet will go if you don't futz up the trigger press. You will find that you have to lift the gun up to be level with your eyes to be best able to see the dot.
I've got a couple of red dots on rifles. If I've got the iron sight cheek weld, the dot is just below the top of the front sight. However, any kind of cheek weld that lets me see the dot will allow me to hit the target.
Also, you might want to move the gun in closer to your eyes to improve the field of view. You're going to notice a whole lot more wobble of the dot on the target than you see with the front iron sight. This is because the dot is visually on the target. Concentrate on the fundamentals, use isometric tension (push out with gun hand, pull back with support hand) and shoot within the wobble area. Post #6 is right.
ETA: the iron sights are your backup if the red dot fails. Otherwise, you can ignore them.
I've got a couple of red dots on rifles. If I've got the iron sight cheek weld, the dot is just below the top of the front sight. However, any kind of cheek weld that lets me see the dot will allow me to hit the target.
Also, you might want to move the gun in closer to your eyes to improve the field of view. You're going to notice a whole lot more wobble of the dot on the target than you see with the front iron sight. This is because the dot is visually on the target. Concentrate on the fundamentals, use isometric tension (push out with gun hand, pull back with support hand) and shoot within the wobble area. Post #6 is right.
ETA: the iron sights are your backup if the red dot fails. Otherwise, you can ignore them.
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45Smashemflat
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One other tip. If your pistol already shoots to the irons, then when you have the dot zeroed, if you line up the irons, the dot will be there. This provides a couple of benefits.
When you are first training, turn OFF the dot and shoot to the irons. The intent here is to train away the distraction of the dot housing.
Then turn the dot on, but still practice shooting to the irons. The point here is, as you line up the irons (which you are used to doing) the dot will naturally come in to view. This keeps you from “hunting for the dot.” Keep doing this and you will learn to “hand off to the dot” seamlessly.
As noted, there is no need to line up the dot and sights to make a hit. If zeroed, where the dot is, is where the bullet goes. But you are used to irons, so use them as training wheels to get used to the dot.
Last, the irons and dot alignment allows for a quick check of dot condition as you gun up in the morning. Check mag, press check chamber, present gun in a safe direction and align your irons. Dot there? (Battery/source good). Aligned with irons? (No zero shift.). Holster up, go to work.
When you are first training, turn OFF the dot and shoot to the irons. The intent here is to train away the distraction of the dot housing.
Then turn the dot on, but still practice shooting to the irons. The point here is, as you line up the irons (which you are used to doing) the dot will naturally come in to view. This keeps you from “hunting for the dot.” Keep doing this and you will learn to “hand off to the dot” seamlessly.
As noted, there is no need to line up the dot and sights to make a hit. If zeroed, where the dot is, is where the bullet goes. But you are used to irons, so use them as training wheels to get used to the dot.
Last, the irons and dot alignment allows for a quick check of dot condition as you gun up in the morning. Check mag, press check chamber, present gun in a safe direction and align your irons. Dot there? (Battery/source good). Aligned with irons? (No zero shift.). Holster up, go to work.
Assuming I know the zero of my irons sights (where poa=poi), I initially "boresight" my red dot to cowitness with the irons. Beauty of the red dot, is that I can change the zero to a different range if I choose.
Let's say your irons are zeroed to 10 yards, you could adjust the red dot to zero at 25 yards (or vice versa).
BTW: by "cowitness" I mean I can see the irons through my red dot (lower 1/3). I align my irons to get the "combat hold" on target at the proper range, then put the red dot on the front sight dot while maintaining the iron sight picture. Once done, I can ignore the irons, keep both eyes open and stay target focused.
Let's say your irons are zeroed to 10 yards, you could adjust the red dot to zero at 25 yards (or vice versa).
BTW: by "cowitness" I mean I can see the irons through my red dot (lower 1/3). I align my irons to get the "combat hold" on target at the proper range, then put the red dot on the front sight dot while maintaining the iron sight picture. Once done, I can ignore the irons, keep both eyes open and stay target focused.
