Sizing 223?

[rwsmith]

This thread has become very valuable to me....

I've had the same problem with 30-06 that I haven't yet taken enough time to try to figure out (I'm shooting more pistol at the indoor range). I use mixed brass, too.

It's been a while and didn't take notes because I had no problem before:

I didn't have any problems with the old Lee Hand Tools, which neck sized only.

Using the RCBS die set (adjusted to the shell holder) gave probs and I thought I'd solve it with a FL die, and I don't think that fixed anything. I've been meaning to study the problem in depth, and maybe bring it up here if I couldn't figure things out.

 

[moxie]

I use a plain RCBS FL two-die set. I check some sized brass and some finished rounds with the Lyman case gage.

Never have a problem with headspace, feeding, firing, or extracting.

My brass is 95%+ range brass, different ranges even. Scores of different headstamps, including G.F.L., and Geco. They all work just fine except for the Bosnian IK 03 that has skinny flashholes and will break your decap pin.

If they are the correct OAL and fit in the Lyman gage, they should be just fine. Perhaps your sizing die is off?

I did come home with some Wolf brass the other day for the first time. Comes out of the tumbler very pretty. Haven't reloaded it yet, but it looks good.

 

[Ballistic147]

So, I think I have the problem solved. This morning I reset the sizing die. Went in another 1/8 turn. Double checked a couple of the out of spec cases per the Lyman gauge and they were still out of spec. Ran them through the die and checked again and they are now within specs according to the gauge. I then chamber a few of the out of spec cases in my rifle (AR 15). The bolt will go fully into battery but is really tight. Pulling the charging handle to extract the case takes some effort but they do extract. Next I run these cases back through the die and try them in the rifle again. Chambering is now very smooth and extracts normally. Just for the record my rifle is a Palmetto State Armory with the CHF chrome lined barrel chambered for 5.56 and I assume the chamber is on the tight end of the specs.

All of the brass in question is 223 that I had bought to try out. My "stockpile" of ammo is all 5.56 which is from 3 different manufacturers. I have about 5k rounds of that. The 223 I'm working on reloading right now there are only about 250 pieces of brass. For simplicity I might chunk it after the first reload.

The equipment I'm using is the Hornady LnL AP press with Hornady dies. So far I've reloaded 2,500 rounds of pistol ammo on this set up but this is my first attempt at bottle neck stuff so I knew there would be a learning curve. Obviously I have now learned with bottle neck ammo some adjustment on the sizing die most likely will be necessary on different brands of brass to get the correct head spacing.

Again, thanks to all for the advice and help. I keep two notebooks in my shop. One is to record all of my loads for each caliber and the other is for notes on problems I've run into and the fix for each.

 

[Taipan01]

By way of them not fitting yours but everyone else's, are they all chambered the same? Besides 5.56 rated at a higher pressure, the chambers are slightly different:



Also, depending on who made it will have a variance also:



On the brass itself, yes there are differences in thickness and annealing. One thing it could be is thin brass and not enough lube inside the case mouth so that the spindle is pulling the shoulders back with it.

I have a turret but also a single stage. I prefer to load bottle necks on the single though I can set the turret to single stage operation and do it as batches.

One thing that I do as habit with bottle necks is double stroke both the sizing of the shell and bullet seating. I'll send the shell up into the resizer, drop it down, rotate it a third to a half turn and send it back up. You could try that and it seems you may have inadvertently with your last post.

For the bullet seating, I'll set the bullet half way, rotate the shell as above and then fully seat it. I find it reduces runout.

 

[moxie]

No reason to "chunk" the .223. Your 5.56, once it has been fired and then sized in your die, actually becomes .223. You can reload that .223 brass many times without any problems.

 

[rwsmith]

Taipan...That's the only real...

... explanation I've seen of the 'some minor differences' between the .223 and the 5.56 Nato. Thanks

Why is there any difference? Was the .223 introduced before the 5.56 was finalized?

Wikipedia, that most prestigious of sources, say that the two cartridge are identical in dimensions. Obviously this isn't true.

 

[Taipan01]

... explanation I've seen of the 'some minor differences' between the .223 and the 5.56 Nato. Thanks

Why is there any difference? Was the .223 introduced before the 5.56 was finalized?

Wikipedia, that most prestigious of sources, say that the two cartridge are identical in dimensions. Obviously this isn't true.

Actually, the .222 came before either and is the grandaddy to both. I have to dig back in my head when the two actually split. I think when they came out with the A2 and longer, heavier bullets is when you'll see the separation.

There is a backwards situation when you speak of the 7.62 Nato vs the 308. It's also different by way of chambers but most assume the are also the same:



And the 308 actually has higher pressures.

Saying Nato, in and of itself, is a mixed bag. If you can picture all the various places that the ammunition and the firearms are produced, the tolerances and quality control variances, countries of origin, metallurgy and so on, it gets a bit deep.

I get into some of it here but I don't know if it's verboten to post to another website? Maybe not:

A second run at my style (this time bottle necks) written mainly for newer reloaders. - AR15.COM

 

[moxie]

And to further confuse things, the M193 55 gr. 5.56mm round was never approved by NATO as it was deemed too devastating. Nevertheless, it's often called the 5.56 NATO, and often has the NATO bullseye on the headstamp. And it was the primary U.S. issue round in Vietnam and all through the '70s, well into the '80s. The first 5.56 round actually approved by NATO was the 62 gr. M855.

 

[Ballistic147]

As far as I know 223 and 5.56 cases are identical on the outer dimensions, at least that's what it shows in the Hornady manual as well as everything I've read on the web. The only real difference between the two are the chambers on the rifle. All of our rifles are the 5.56 barrel. We have two from PSA, one Colt, and one of them (my son's) I'm really not sure of the manufacturer but all are 5.56.

My military crimp remover should be here next week so I'll be able to load some 5.56 brass. Once I get into that I'll find out if it will all size the same or if it will have to be sorted by head stamp too. For now I'll be loading plain old blasting ammo and maybe get into more accuracy down the road.

 

[fredj338]

The biggest dimensional diff between 223/5.56 is throat length. Longer throat allows more powder & highr vel & still stay within acceptable pressures.

 

[Ballistic147]

Just wanted to update this thread since I have solved the problem. Here's where I'm at:

Using the Hornady dies in my Hornady LNL press I have sized PMC, Fiocchi, and Winchester 223 brass with no issues. I've also sized PMC, LC, and IMI 5.56 brass with no problems.

I have tried everything I know of to size the Prvi Partizan 5.56 brass I have and can't get it to the correct length for proper headspacing. What seems to be happening is as it goes into the die it feels much tighter than the other brands of brass. Once the ram has been raised to the very top reversing it to extract the brass from the die is really tight almost as if it's going to stick. It will finally break loose with a pop which I'm really not comfortable with the force it requires to break it loose. Now I think what is happening is the shoulder and/or neck of the case is nearly sticking in the die and before the case breaks free of the die it is actually stretching back out a little causing it be slightly out of spec according to the headspace gauge. At least that's all I can come up with.

Anyway, I picked up a Lee full length sizing die and set it up tonight. Ran about 20 of the PPU cases through it and they run through the sizing die very smoothly and also check good in the headspace gauge. Still not sure why the Hornady die works perfectly fine with all the other brands of brass but not the PPU.

Either way, I'm just glad I have a way to size the PPU brass since I have about 3k rounds of it unfired. Thanks to all for the help. You folks have made the learning curve much easier!