Smith & Wesson. 1911. 45ACP. Accuracy questions. SOLVED!

[tatarica762]

I'm a new owner of a smith & wesson 1911 (not the e-model). It's a full size in 45ACP. I'll admit that I'm disappointed.

I've shot S&W revolvers and their M&P and can get fairly tight groups. (it's not hard to get 2-3 inch groups with factory ammo out of a 686 in 357 for example (25 yards. benched)).

However, with this 1911, the groups (with a myriad of factory loads and different shooters all benched at 25 yards) are from 5-8 inches.

I've checked the gun: It's tight, a gunsmith looked it over and doesn't see anything wrong with it. The barrel is good with very little rounds through it (strong rifling, crown is clean, no burrs anywhere). The sights are tight and don't move. The bushing is factory but not overly loose. There is no play in the barrel when in battery. The trigger breaks cleanly at about 4.75 pounds.

The only possible concern is when I slugged the bore, it came out to .452 (which seems overly large; S&W say their bores are spec-ed to .442-.443.). The only thing holding that bullet would be the groves at that point (for .451 Jacketed bullets).

I've checked me. I'm not the best pistol shooter but I've done the dummy in the magazine trick, the penny trick, slow trigger squeeze, etc. I know I'm pointing at the target when the trigger breaks but then POI is a full 3-5 inches from POA.

Frustrated, I bought some gun powder/different bullets, etc. and started to reloaded 45ACP (I've been reloading 308 for a while). I CAREFULLY loaded each round like I would for rifle-bench work (carefully weighing each round, cleaning primer pockets, etc.) I tried 3 different gun powders (Bullseye, Unique and Blue dot) and 4 different bullets (230 grains in FMJ, TMJ and Lead Round Nose and 200 grain lead semi wad cutters).

The groups 'shrunk' to 4-5 inches. The lowest was 2.5 inches with the 200 grain lead semi wad cutters but i can't replicate it.

I sent the gun to S&W. They find nothing wrong with the gun and return it with a test target at 15 yards. I shows a small group that would measure about 2 inches. (that would be about 3-4 inches at 25 yards).

Do I send this back to S&W to look over again? Is there anything else I can check? I've blown through several hundred rounds and half a dozen range trips with no luck.

 

[gunfish]

5 inches at 25 yds is about right for factory loads I think.I don't shoot off a rest though.

 

[tatarica762]

Thank you Denise.

yep. that's exact the gun. It's a beauty and I love how it feels. It's been 100% reliable and feeds everything, I'm just discontent with the accuracy. (especially when I can best it with my beat up sig p228 or my hunting carry gun, the 686, for almost twice the price of my sig, I was hoping it would shoot twice as well)

I read/hear stories of 1-2 inch groups with these things and when I can only get 5-7 inches (3 inches with careful handloads), that just disappoints me.

If others can chime in on their sw1911 accuracy, I'd appreciate it. If my expectations are just inaccurate, I'll appreciate the help.

 

[OKFC05]

I sent the gun to S&W. They find nothing wrong with the gun and return it with a test target at 15 yards. I shows a small group that would measure about 2 inches. (that would be about 3-4 inches at 25 yards). ....
I read/hear stories of 1-2 inch groups ...

So you want to buy a standard 1911 and get accuracy normally associated with $2000 bullseye guns? When you find one, get one for me, too!!!!

Several of my revolvers will shoot 1" groups at 25yds with their favorite loads, but even my tuned S&W 1911 Pro won't do that.

 

[tatarica762]

thanks for the comments. First, I'm feeling better as hopefully my expectations adjusts.

So, factory 1911s accuracy at 25 yards benched with factory ammo is right around 5 inches and hand loads can cut that in half (as I'm seeing)?

Anything better than that are either custom or really lucky?

 

[OKFC05]

Anything better than that are either custom or really lucky?

or some some cases when we finally get them into a match, a lie

 

[Fishinfool]

I don't own a S&W 1911, but own quite a few Colts, Kimbers, and even a RIA. All will shoot better then 5 - 7 inches from the bench with factory ammo. With either factory or handloaded ammo it likes, it should stay in the 2 inch range from the bench at 25 yards.

Some may say 5 - 7 inches at 25 yards is acceptable service grade accuracy, but a modern, well fit 1911 should do much better. I would take it to an experienced 1911 gunsmith, and have the locking lug / link pin fit checked, and maybe a look at the bore with a bore scope for starters.

When I read a post like this, the first thing I think, is "is the shooter capable of shooting a good group?". But in your case, you seem up to the task, based on the accuracy you can achieve with your other handguns. I have found 1911's tend to be sensitive as to how they are held, and rested from the bench. I usually use a firm, two handed hold, and do not rest the gun on anything, instead, resting my wrists on sandbags, allowing the gun to recoil more naturally.

Larry

 

[kennyb]

i too think 5-7 inches is a bit much...have a friend that shoots well try it...a 45acp does take some getting used too

 

[JoeHatley]

If others can chime in on their sw1911 accuracy, I'd appreciate it.

My early SW1911. 1st target is 48 rounds rapid fire, 2nd is 8 rounds slow fire.
Both were shot 2 handed, off hand. IIRC... rapid fire was 50' and slow fire was 75' on an indoor range.

My hand loads. 200 grain plated SWC and 4.5 grains Bullseye.

 

[arjay]

Might be worth ordering a fitted barrel bushing.Check out evolution gun works.

 

[M29since14]

My hand loads. 200 grain plated SWC and 4.5 grains Bullseye.

It's not a target pistol, but it will probably shoot better than you think. Take a look at Joe's load. It is pretty much a classic .45 target load people have been using for decades - precisely because it gives great accuracy in a wide variety of guns. Similar loads usually work well, too. Seat depth is 1.250 OAL for the H&G #68 type bullet and most people prefer a relatively firm taper crimp to 0.468" right at the case mouth. I prefer Federal 150 primers but almost anything works fine.

If your gun won't shoot something like this, it needs a new barrel! Well, that is a simple answer, but you know what I mean. It should shoot around 3-inches at 25-yards, or maybe a bit better.

Lots of .45s react poorly to ammunition with FMJs. I wouldn't be surprised about that at all. Some of the better JHPs should do better. When I talked to S&W about my .45, they told me they were testing (at that time) with Winchester white-box 230-gr JHPs. I think the box tab they sent me said "Personal Defense," or something like that. In my area, it runs ~$30/box at Walmart and the farm stores. (Gun shops around here don't seem to carry it, for some reason.) Expensive stuff, as far as I am concerned, but you might buy a box for a "control" load in your testing.

Edit: here is the load I mentioned above
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/29...nition-45-acp-230-grain-jacketed-hollow-point

 

[tatarica762]

thank for the replies guys.

I got an email back from S&W. When I asked about their testing and accuracy standards, I got this:

We run one magazine through the gun at 25 yards groups within three inches

Ammo
Federal 230 Grain Hydra-Shok

Michael


Only 1 group at one time broke 3 inches at 25 yards (4.1 of bullseye pushing 200 grain SWC) (see pic above). I'm going to send this back to S&W.

 

[tatarica762]

Might be worth ordering a fitted barrel bushing.Check out evolution gun works.

yep. i ordered one. it's sitting in my garage's work bench. I was going to fit it yesterday but after looking at the factory bushing, it's fine. I'm starting to think it's more than the bushing.

I really think it's the barrel. Remember, I slugged it and it came out to .452. FMJs are .451. Lead bullets are .452. S&W says their bores are spec-ed to .442-.443.

 

[tatarica762]

i too think 5-7 inches is a bit much...have a friend that shoots well try it...a 45acp does take some getting used too

Did. I asked a range officer that I always see shoot fancy guns one handed at 25 yards (so I figure he knows what he's doing). He fired maybe 20 rounds worth, 4 groups. one of the groups didn't even have all the rounds on paper. The rest where like mine, about 5-7 inches. He did 1 group standing/unsupported like he normally shoots and after that first group, he tried benched and it still didn't group for him.

 

[tatarica762]

I don't own a S&W 1911, but own quite a few Colts, Kimbers, and even a RIA. All will shoot better then 5 - 7 inches from the bench with factory ammo. With either factory or handloaded ammo it likes, it should stay in the 2 inch range from the bench at 25 yards.

Some may say 5 - 7 inches at 25 yards is acceptable service grade accuracy, but a modern, well fit 1911 should do much better. I would take it to an experienced 1911 gunsmith, and have the locking lug / link pin fit checked, and maybe a look at the bore with a bore scope for starters.

When I read a post like this, the first thing I think, is "is the shooter capable of shooting a good group?". But in your case, you seem up to the task, based on the accuracy you can achieve with your other handguns. I have found 1911's tend to be sensitive as to how they are held, and rested from the bench. I usually use a firm, two handed hold, and do not rest the gun on anything, instead, resting my wrists on sandbags, allowing the gun to recoil more naturally.

Larry

Thanks Larry. My conundrum is that when I sent this to S&W, they tested it and it 'performed for them'. They returned a 2 inch group at 15 yards. Of course, that's contrary to what Micheal @ S&W says since he said it should have been tested at 25 yards and it still return 3 inches or less.

I'll going to send it back...

Anyone have to send and resend stuff to S&W and they not do anything the first time but finally do later? i need some hope they will make this right. =)

 

[captaint]

Where to begin.... I have 2 1911's that I shoot regularly. They both cost more than the S&W - I think, anyway. Can't say how they shoot factory ammo, never shot any. I have shot a bunch of my own cast H&G 68's, H&G 130's and Lyman 452460 and others. They will all shoot under 2 inches at 25 yards, rested. I have used Titegroup, Clays, Red Dot, WW231 and some others. They all perform well, accuracy wise. When I taper crimp the case mouths, they are around .470 - .471. I'm thinking a groove size of .452 sounds a little loose. My barrels slug under .451, and some are closer to .450. I size my boolits at .452 and that works. If you know someone with another make barrel that fits your gun, it might be fun to try that just to see how that shoots. I think your gun should do better than 5-7 inches rested. You do, however, need to be careful with the grip on semi auto pistols. I find myself making mistakes in that department all the time. It's really important.
One question - do you, by any chance, use a Lee Factory Crimp Die ?? Cause if you do - throw that in the trash. As others have said "it fixes problems that don't exist". All too true. Just my experience. enjoy Mike

 

[tatarica762]

Where to begin.... I have 2 1911's that I shoot regularly. They both cost more than the S&W - I think, anyway. Can't say how they shoot factory ammo, never shot any. I have shot a bunch of my own cast H&G 68's, H&G 130's and Lyman 452460 and others. They will all shoot under 2 inches at 25 yards, rested. I have used Titegroup, Clays, Red Dot, WW231 and some others. They all perform well, accuracy wise. When I taper crimp the case mouths, they are around .470 - .471. I'm thinking a groove size of .452 sounds a little loose. My barrels slug under .451, and some are closer to .450. I size my boolits at .452 and that works. If you know someone with another make barrel that fits your gun, it might be fun to try that just to see how that shoots. I think your gun should do better than 5-7 inches rested. You do, however, need to be careful with the grip on semi auto pistols. I find myself making mistakes in that department all the time. It's really important.
One question - do you, by any chance, use a Lee Factory Crimp Die ?? Cause if you do - throw that in the trash. As others have said "it fixes problems that don't exist". All too true. Just my experience. enjoy Mike

Thanks Mike. I'll see if there is a barrel I can borrow. But if the S&W return label comes before my next trip to the range, I'm just going to send it in. (I'm pretty frustrated).

I may get the technical wording wrong but these are my 2 measurements of that lead ball I slugged through the barrel: .4520 (largest part) and .4435. That seems really large for a barrel. (but it looks good; strong rifling and all).

Question, if S&W realizes that I have shot some reloads as part of my testing (and those reloads are the ONLY ones that have shown some decency), will that affect warranty? I follow my 'Lyman cook book' to the T.

 

[dave_g]

Tatarica762 do you cast bullets? If so I'd try to get something sized to .453. You should be able to order some that size from somewhere if you don't cast. If a fat bullet doesn't help then I would try a new barrel. I put a Kart Easy-Fit in my Springfield Armory 1911 and it works great. It's also very easy to clean.

 

[captaint]

tatarica - Yes, be careful about mentioning reloaded ammo. Most manufacturers get funny about that. The "fatter boolit" advice is also a good idea. Certainly can't hurt.
I does sound like you measured your slug correctly. I would advise that you use a micrometer, rather than a caliper for that measurement if you have mic's. They're just more accurate. .452 does sound big. Certainly larger than average. Let us know how it works out. enjoy Mike

 

[tatarica762]

Tatarica762 do you cast bullets? If so I'd try to get something sized to .453. You should be able to order some that size from somewhere if you don't cast. If a fat bullet doesn't help then I would try a new barrel. I put a Kart Easy-Fit in my Springfield Armory 1911 and it works great. It's also very easy to clean.

I don't but I buy cast bullets (Missouri Bullet Company). Strange - the box says, ".452 diameter". When I measure them with some calipers, they are .453.

Those perform a lot better than the FMJ/TMJs I used before. I'm looking at my groups now. Once I tried the MBC lead, they are all on paper at least. 3 inches to 5 inches.

Here are the most recent groups:

(25 yards, benched)