Smith & Wesson. 1911. 45ACP. Accuracy questions. SOLVED!

[tatarica762]

tatarica - Yes, be careful about mentioning reloaded ammo. Most manufacturers get funny about that. The "fatter boolit" advice is also a good idea. Certainly can't hurt.
I does sound like you measured your slug correctly. I would advise that you use a micrometer, rather than a caliper for that measurement if you have mic's. They're just more accurate. .452 does sound big. Certainly larger than average. Let us know how it works out. enjoy Mike

thanks, I'll report back on how it goes. I'll say this, Micheal from S&W customer service has been emailing with me for the last 3 days. They do have good customer service and I'm glad the gun has a 'longer than 1 year warranty'.

 

[smitty_bs]

I have an SW1911 with close to 600 rounds through it. Mine is the blued version, basic short GI guide rod, Novak sights, and no forward serrations on the slide. I am probably an average shot, and tend to shoot revolvers more than semi-autos. That being said, I can shoot 5" groups at 25 yards with most standard range quality factory ammo without trying too hard. I am very happy with the gun as it has been dependable, looks great, and has at least serviceable accuracy.

There is no doubt that with top quality ammo and a better shooter, that my gun can go in the 3 inch range at 25 yds, and probably less. Your's and all others in this price range should at least be able to get into that as well. That's my 2 cents.

 

[tatarica762]

Smitty, I assume this is non benched 5 inch groups right?

 

[tatarica762]

Where to begin.... I have 2 1911's that I shoot regularly. They both cost more than the S&W - I think, anyway. Can't say how they shoot factory ammo, never shot any. I have shot a bunch of my own cast H&G 68's, H&G 130's and Lyman 452460 and others. They will all shoot under 2 inches at 25 yards, rested. I have used Titegroup, Clays, Red Dot, WW231 and some others. They all perform well, accuracy wise. When I taper crimp the case mouths, they are around .470 - .471. I'm thinking a groove size of .452 sounds a little loose. My barrels slug under .451, and some are closer to .450. I size my boolits at .452 and that works. If you know someone with another make barrel that fits your gun, it might be fun to try that just to see how that shoots. I think your gun should do better than 5-7 inches rested. You do, however, need to be careful with the grip on semi auto pistols. I find myself making mistakes in that department all the time. It's really important.
One question - do you, by any chance, use a Lee Factory Crimp Die ?? Cause if you do - throw that in the trash. As others have said "it fixes problems that don't exist". All too true. Just my experience. enjoy Mike

I don't think I answered this one.

for the grip, i basically hold it as high as possible. thumb over thumb pointing towards the target.

I don't have a 45 factory crimp die. I basically seat the bullet and it crimps there; I don't have a seperate crimper.

 

[smitty_bs]

Well, I usually don't get too technical, but I'm saying when I rest on a sandbag, I can do 5" at 25yds with Winchester White Box without trying too hard. I'm an average shot from what I see at the range.

 

[2hawk]

Sounds like a frustrating situation, indeed. I notice that you asked about sending firearms back to S&W and seeing no result on the first go, and unfortunately it does seem like more people are reporting that is the case, and the problem is not fixed until a second (or worse, third) return.

A couple of other things jump out: you state that "S&W says their bores are spec-ed to .442-.443", which I have never heard of as a bore dimension for .45acp. I think you may want to double check that. The other is the bore dimension that you do report, at .452. That seems big to me as well, and I would think that would be grounds to get another barrel. If they can fit a new barrel with proper dimensions properly I suspect you will see much better accuracy.

Lastly, on the handloads- the thing that really sold me on reloading was how much better my own loads performed accuracy-wise. Factory fodder never did as well in any of my pistols as what I could make myself, and I certainly didn't use bench-rest loading techniques. Sounds like you may have already found a load the gun likes, but if it's not consistent, it's not worth much. But my guess is that your problems are in that barrel if it is out of spec. Be polite but firm with the CS dept. and I think you be able to wind up with the gun you expected to have.
Good Luck!

 

[curt solomon sr.]

Have you tried putting it in a Ransom rest to take the human error out of the mix. Just a thought

 

[tatarica762]

Sounds like a frustrating situation, indeed. I notice that you asked about sending firearms back to S&W and seeing no result on the first go, and unfortunately it does seem like more people are reporting that is the case, and the problem is not fixed until a second (or worse, third) return.

A couple of other things jump out: you state that "S&W says their bores are spec-ed to .442-.443", which I have never heard of as a bore dimension for .45acp. I think you may want to double check that. The other is the bore dimension that you do report, at .452. That seems big to me as well, and I would think that would be grounds to get another barrel. If they can fit a new barrel with proper dimensions properly I suspect you will see much better accuracy.

Lastly, on the handloads- the thing that really sold me on reloading was how much better my own loads performed accuracy-wise. Factory fodder never did as well in any of my pistols as what I could make myself, and I certainly didn't use bench-rest loading techniques. Sounds like you may have already found a load the gun likes, but if it's not consistent, it's not worth much. But my guess is that your problems are in that barrel if it is out of spec. Be polite but firm with the CS dept. and I think you be able to wind up with the gun you expected to have.
Good Luck!

Great advice. I'm firm but ever polite. I'm 'comforted' to know that others have had to send their guns in twice or 3x times to finally get a resolution.

Do you think I should mention this time that I've already sent this in? On one hand, they may not even test it and just go with last time's testing data? or they could finally test it more thoroughly.

 

[tatarica762]

Have you tried putting it in a Ransom rest to take the human error out of the mix. Just a thought

excellent idea. I don't have access to a ransom rest though. The best I could manage was find some range officers with more experience shooting than I and have them have a go at it. Results were the same - dismal.

 

[2hawk]

Great advice. I'm firm but ever polite. I'm 'comforted' to know that others have had to send their guns in twice or 3x times to finally get a resolution.

Do you think I should mention this time that I've already sent this in? On one hand, they may not even test it and just go with last time's testing data? or they could finally test it more thoroughly.

By all means, tell them! Having sent the gun back and had it returned with no improvement or even a credible attempt at a diagnosis is just as big an issue as your original complaint. Let them know of your extensive attempts to match or even get close to what they claim, i.e., 3" at 25yds. If you could find a Ransom rest and use the same ammo they use you'd have a solid case, but I doubt that you need to go to such lengths.

 

[novalty]

I love my S&W 1911, it's the target model #108284 with factory adjustable sights. The gun will shoot far better than I can. I love to use it for plate shoots and it is by far the gun I feel most confident with in terms of accuracy.

 

[M29since14]

The gun, with test targets, as it was returned by S&W.

I complained about accuracy with the usual FMJ loads. Their response was, "Try different ammunition."

 

[tatarica762]

The gun, with test targets, as it was returned by S&W.

I complained about accuracy with the usual FMJ loads. Their response was, "Try different ammunition."

m29, have you been able to replicate the good groupings yet? (using the white box winchester HPs)

 

[tatarica762]

well, it's off to S&W; I'll report back on what happens.

I included about 5 different test targets. All were about 4-6 inches at 25 yards.

 

[Harrison]

You have to make up your mind. Do you want a bullseye pistol or do you want a reliable tactical-defensive pistol?

If you are just going to shot groups, than send your 1911 to a gunsmith that specializes in accuratising for bullseye.

Otherwise, you pistol is more than accurate enough for defensive use, USPSA, IDPA or steel competition. Defensive use and most competition doesn't require bullseye accuracy. It requires 100% reliability with most ammunition, even if the pistol is dirty. Trust me, if you ever get in a life or death situation, you are probably not going to have the option to shoot off a bench. What you pistol does off the bench is not as important as what it does unsupported in your hands. shooting rapid fire, can it keep most of the rounds in the A zone of a USPSA target at 25 yards, or even on the target itself? Thats what you need to worry about.

 

[tatarica762]

I think we can have both. (especially in today's age with modern metallurgy, quality control, good designs, good ammunition, etc.). I expect this 1911 (from a reputable company, costing almost twice of what I paid for my 9mm) to deliver both those goods (accuracy and reliability).

I know this isn't a race gun but I'd like for it to at least match what other guns in half it's price range can do (3-4 inches at 25 yards seems to be the average results that I see in gun reviews and what I've been able to do with much cheaper guns)

I have a beat up sig p228 9mm that can at least keep all the shoots at 25 yards inside a paper plate (3-5 inches). My S&W 686 does so too but in half the size (2-3 inches pretty consistently). I've owned several Berettas (92fs and px4) that all shoot better than this 1911...that's why I've been a bit disappointed and hope that S&W can do me right.

If the final answer (after I get this one back again) is that this is all to spec and all it can do (4-6+ inches at 25 yards), I'm going to sell it and buy something else. I think someone once said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting." (I'm substituting 'gun' for 'rifle' there)

 

[2hawk]

I bought this Commander (factory configuration except bbl., used) with an unfitted Bar-Sto bbl., it had a .400 Cor-Bon bbl. in it at the time. It was my first attempt at 1911 gunsmithing; I added the Wilson parts and a C&S fire control set. One thing that was beyond my skill level was trying to take the slop out of the slide/frame fit, and I could only do so much with the new barrel. It is visibly "loose", in that you can grab the slide and get a tiny bit of wiggle, and that tolerance is also apparent in the barrel hood when you push down on it through the ejection port when in battery. Nonetheless, the first time I took it out after putting everything together I was able to put 7 shots into an 1-1/2" at 50 feet, rested. I was pretty amazed at that, and the gunsmith that I go to said that it doesn't matter how loose a 1911 is: as long as it locks up consistently it will be capable of good accuracy. So having reliability and accuracy are not mutually exclusive. I have a couple of Les Baers and Wilsons as well, and they are tight, accurate, and reliable as well. More accurate than this one, for sure. But frankly they all outshoot me.

 

[Amedeus]

I doubt there is anything wrong with your gun. 1911's just require some muscle memory and some time to learn how it likes to be held and fired. I'm a decent shot with my RIA 1911 compact, from 25 yards out I can put 7 rounds into the head and neck of a man sized target, but if I give it to my father who is an old Marine and carried a 1911 for years in service he puts all 7 rounds right in its brain pan, twice as fast in about a 3 to 4 inch group and then pats me on the back for trying....

The 1911 just requires some quality time to be familiar with it. Take it to the movies, out to dinner, get to know it and you'll improve. Hopefully I will too.

 

[M29since14]

m29, have you been able to replicate the good groupings yet? (using the white box winchester HPs)

I'll try to run down a box of those and shoot a couple targets, then get back to this thread.

 

[M29since14]

Tatarica762, I did not have time to run down a box of the Winchester ammunition S&W suggested before the next visit to the range. Nevertheless, here is a photo that might interest you.

The target was fired last evening, 25-yards, benchrest position, first five rounds from the gun with clean barrel, with my usual .45 handload using cast H&G #68 bullets. There is no doubt the gun will shoot, but for some reason it is not fond of ball. So S&W is right when they say "try different ammunition." This one just isn't going to shoot the usual 230-gr FMJs.