Smith & Wesson .22 MONGREL?

[BMur]

Well,
Here is one for the advanced collectors out there. I’ve never seen this one before but I’m sure it’s legit. Please open your books to the following pages. Roy Jinks Book to page 56. Flaydermans volume 9 to page 220. Mr. Jinks claims the factory called them MONGRELS ( MUTTS). Apparently put together with left over parts circa 1868 during the transition from early Model 1 1/2 to later model with fluted cylinder and iron frame. Flaydermans simply calls them “ Transitional” and assigns a hefty value to them. $$$
Here’s the catch. Neither of these references even mentions a .22 cal transitional example or The MONGREL?? It would fall between the model 1 2nd variations and the model 1 3rd variation. This super rare example has a birds head iron grip frame with early model 1 barrel and modified machined fluted cylinder that if you look closely has parts of the patent dates on it from a modified non fluted earlier cylinder that was used!

My Question; Has anyone ever seen one of these .22 cal MONGRELS?? Any idea of how many were made? I don’t have it in possession yet. Just won the auction but it’s real. It’s not a Spanish copy! But it’s unlisted in all my books! You can probably tell I’m kinda stoked!

 

[BMur]

Here are a couple photos.

 

[glowe]

My guess is that you will find mis-matched assembly markings, but my hope is that you have the real thing. Of course, you never know until you have it in your hands. I have not seen any transitional Model 1s. The markings are found on the rear of the barrel assembly, the face of the cylinder, and the right side of the butt-frame under the stocks. Hope you have the real deal, but without matching assembly marks, it would be put-together from two guns. Let us know what the serial number is as well.

 

[rubiranch]

Here's my 1st model 2nd issue (1868?) but sadly its not a Mongrel.

 

[BMur]

The reason I am convinced it’s real?
The frame is both iron and “unique”. If you look at the top of the grip where it meets the frame you actually see the same type taper as found in the photo of the earlier brass frame provided by Gary? When we look at photos of the 3rd variation you see a 1/2 moon shaped taper. This makes sense from a transitional standpoint. Also Mr Jinks mentions that the early model 1 1/2 barrel will NOT fit on on the later variation of the model 1 1/2. I’m hoping that is true with the 22 also. I will check the assembly numbers and post the results. The serial number is speculative at this point also. It should be above the 117,000 listed by Mr. Jinks as the highest known number for the model 1-2nd variation but Who knows? It might be very low also, representing the beginning of the 3rd variant? I don’t know. I will post what I find.
BMur

 

[BMur]

Oh, Also while waiting for delivery, I have inquired from several older antique arms dealers Via email and I am waiting for their response as to “ have they ever seen or heard of one”? I will post their reply. Mr. Dick Liddlefield being my primary hope. He has been around for many moons and specializes in the smaller calibers. If anyone has seen one, he has!

 

[glowe]

My guess is that there are more S&W experts per square inch on this forum than anywhere else in the Universe. Arms dealers may or may not know much about S&W, but be assured many here will help you out when you have more information.

The Model 1, 3rd actually had steel frame, albeit a low carbon early variety steel, but the appearance just above the stocks does have the old style, which may be a bit of a transition by itself if original.

The stocks on that revolver do not look like anything the factory would turn out and am guessing they are homemade. The screw is way too low on the stock and shows a very large hole on the left side, which is something not seen on any model tip-up. The stocks appear not to have the correct brass escutcheons in either stock, so I am still skeptical, but "lunch box specials" escaped the factory from time to time and they would also be known as mongrels, just not factory.

 

[BMur]

Oh I totally agree! The grips are a joke. No doubt. But I personally forgive them their inadequacy in lieu of the rarity(possible) of the piece. It caught my eye and I can’t easily explain all the odd features on the frame! I also just noticed that the side plate is not the same as an iron plate found on the 3rd variant as well. It looks exactly like a side plate for the earlier 2nd brass variant. Too many oddities on this one to be a lunchbox special.

 

[mmaher94087]

There was an example like this at a show in Virginia about 20 years ago. I believe the revolver was owned by Doug Carlson. It was blue and had the odd flat-top grip to frame shape. All assembly numbers matched too.

 

[BMur]

Thanks for that input Mike.
Hopefully this one has matching numbers also? Honestly, the only thing I’m really concerned about is the remote possibility that it’s a Spanish copy? Colt copies are easily identified as are Merwins but I’ve seen Model 2 S&W Army’s in 32rf that are nothing less than amazing copies!
You can’t tell until they are in hand and the dreaded Belgian proof mark hits ya like a punch to the gut! Although values on them are going up a lot I just can’t get past the “ copy”, non - American made knock-off! I guess I never will!

 

[model3sw]

Hoping it works out to your advantage but the assembly / fitment marks on these old cylinders and barrels are often impossible to read after the years of the the residue from the corrosive ammo eating up the steel.

 

[BMur]

Yeah, that’s definitely a distinct possibility. I’m hoping they are readable. I’ve been thinking about the rarity of the Mongrel in 22 cal.? Can’t really assign value to something that hasn’t been documented. I mean I’ve never seen or heard of one. Mike saw one 20 years ago? Most collectors shy away from anything they can’t confirm and isn’t listed in any book references. At least none that I’m aware of. Just my luck. Rare bird but no way to prove it’s legit. I can see it now.... “What the heck is that”? Over and over again!

 

[glowe]

Experienced buyers would know the differences, but many buyers have little idea what they are looking at, so prices even for a rare example of a certain model often stays low. The market for Model 1s is small and take away wary buyers and demand is low, maybe lower than standard Model 1s since many experienced buyers typically don't buy potential rare variations without documentation because they have been stung too many times in the past.

I fear that if the gun turns out to be legitimate, true value may still be hard to realize. I compare this example to the short barreled Model 1 1/2, 2nd Issue guns. The market has become so saturated by cut barrel antique S&Ws that the rare short barrel 1 1/2s go way cheap. I have seen several going for under $300 in recent auctions even with the obvious original side barrel address/patent stamping. Supica estimates value of a good example standard barrel gun at $225 & Fine was $500 and double those values for short barrel, but actual sales are not working out that way.

 

[BMur]

So far very few have seen The Mongrel!!

I just received a response from Dick Littlfield and I am astonished that he has never seen one! He asked the same questions about serial number range, barrel marking and assembly numbers. Again, I will post them with photos when it arrives.
I have also decided to brave the snow and attend the Big Reno Antique Show this weekend and ask the old collectors/ dealers / etc about it. See what they have to say.
I will post what they say by individual name and response! So that will be fun. More to follow.

 

[BMur]

Spare parts

I had forgotten that I actually have spare parts for the Model 1’s. You can plainly see that you can not swap barrels between the 2nd and 3rd issue 22cal. The width difference at both the base and overall height with totally different latch and catch would require significant machining! This fact also strongly supports that the Mongrel .22 cal is real! See photos.

 

[BMur]

This photo says it all.

 

[BMur]

So the barrels will not interchange between frames. So it can’t be a put together! The concept of the frame being faked is kinda ridiculous I think. The time and effort to “make” or manufacture an “Iron frame”? Zero profit! Unless they were made on contract with another firm? I don’t know. That would still constitute ligetimacy or an authentic variation or issue.

 

[glowe]

Please post a picture of the stamping on the top rib of the barrel when you get the gun. I think we need to rule out the possibility of a patent infringement gun.

 

[BMur]

Last photo available for now

Sorry I didn’t post this before. This is from the auction. The address is correct. Gotta pack for the show. I will advise further soon. Thanks for everyone’s interest.

 

[glowe]

Your address is different from my two examples. Both mine, 70xxx AND 75xxx look like the text below. Subtle difference, but why is it different??

SMITH & WESSON.SPRINGFIELD.MASS.

What is interesting is that the Model 2 Revolver also had the single line address with the dots where spaces should be, but a slightly larger with an extra dot.

SMITH.& WESSON.SPRINGFIELD.MASS.

 

[BMur]

I helped a couple authors ( Robert Jordan and Darrow Watt) with research for the Pocket 49 & Baby Dragoon about 18 years ago? The research proved that the Colt Factory changed dies ( machined stamps) in lieu of them wearing out. They would normally last for about 25,000 stamps but as you follow the increase in serial numbers you will actually witness the die breaking down. Broken letters or missing parts of lettering, dots and dashes etc. This would be the same with Smith & Wesson’s I would imagine. Notice also that the die stamp on the Mongrel seems to match my parts barrel stamp. I will photo them side by side when I receive the Mongrel. This suggests that the parts barrel is a later serial numbered 2nd issue.

 

[BMur]

I’m at the show, lots of snow . I spoke with several Dealers etc. None have seen this variation. I also saw Dick Littlfield and he had more to say claiming it should have a very low serial number. ( I don’t agree). Also that it’s likely a very early 3rd issue. He said early low serial numbered 3rd issues had unusual frame characteristics.
Anyway the box arrived at my home and my neighbor has it. I’ll be home late tomorrow so I’ll post something tomorrow night.
I’m just following the lead of the factory historian Mr. Jinks and his research on the 1 1/2 Mongrel. The Model 1 .22cal Mongrel should also therefore have a very high serial number representing the bitter end of the 2nd issue and put together with left over barrels and cylinders.
Oh, also I counted 7 model 1 - 2nd issues at the show. Prices varied from a low of $350 to a high of $800. I suppose based on condition and what the owners think they are worth? Some real nice 3rd issues but over priced.

 

[BMur]

Wonderful Antique. I like it a lot. It actually shows much better in hand.
So here is the breakdown;
If we refer to Mr. Jinks book page 43. He states that the highest serial number noted is in the 126,400 range for the Model 1-2nd issue.
If you look at the photo of The Mongrel 22? You will note the serial number 126443! Exactly where it should be. The last of the line assembled with leftover parts( barrels and cylinders) on a factory specially made and unique frame! Also you can see where they milled fluted on the older non fluted patent stamped cylinder. Partial patents are visible. This example has no assembly number on the frame or the cylinder. Looks to me like it never did. It’s in very good surface condition and has minimal black powder pitting so I honestly doubt it was ever numbered. The barrel does have the letter C3. The 3 matches the last digit of the serial number.
Referring back to Mr. Jinks page 56 he notes that the company had a contract with Savage & King to make barrels and cylinders for the Model 1 1/2 due to the factory being overloaded during the Civil War. In 1868 they had extra barrels and cylinders so they made “The Mongrel” to use up the parts leftover. They also documented approximately 650 made or assembled. 400 went to France, 50 to Japan and the last 200 went to a Distributor in New York. That’s why they are extremely rare. I think we can also apply this rarity to the 22 cal Mongrel. The reason the 22 was not documented referring back to Mr Jinks book? Page 43 “ Serial numbers record has not been found for the Model 1-2nd issue.
So I think I will pursue a factory letter. Perhaps Mr. Jinks and the historical department can answer my initial question about this Mongrel 22cal. How many were made?
It’s obviously real, not faked, a put together in a garage, lunchbox special, or patent infringement.

 

[BMur]

Additional photos

 

[BMur]

Final photos

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Oh, Also while waiting for delivery, I have inquired from several older antique arms dealers Via email and I am waiting for their response as to “ have they ever seen or heard of one”? I will post their reply. Mr. Dick Liddlefield being my primary hope. He has been around for many moons and specializes in the smaller calibers. If anyone has seen one, he has!

I hope when you contact him you address his as Dick Littlefield.

 

[BMur]

You are right of course Don. I should be more mindful of my spelling. Dick is a nice guy. An icon at the shows and always friendly and helpful!
I will post any further info I find on serial number ranges for the 22 cal Mongrel. At least this new variation gives us all something to search for at the shows. A rare bird for sure.

 

[BMur]

Final Photo

The 22cal MONGREL

 

[Patbar]

The grips of your gun are rather strange. They don't look like S&W grips. Where is the screw which holds them together ?

 

[BMur]

Hey Patbar,
The grips were replaced at some point.