Smith & Wesson Model of 1917 (Commerical?)

[CJSmith]

I just picked up this well loved firearm wearing some "super modern" stocks (yes I am keeping them so no PM's . It is a 45 ACP and has a 5 1/2" barrel. I can't find any marking that would indicate this was used by the military so I assume it was a commercial model. Can anyone verify?

The serial number (170199) is on the underside of the barrel, the cylinder and the butt of the gun. Any ballpark on ship date would be appreciated.

 

[Hawkeye3844]

My first question - What caliber is it?

To me, it looks like a S&W Hand Ejector 2nd Model, just like mine.
Your serial number isn't too far away from mine either.
Second question - What barrel length is it?

The modern grips look really nice on it, to me. I have big hands, and.have been looking for a pair like that myself.

Hawk

Sent from my motorola one using Tapatalk

 

[Hawkeye3844]

Here is what mine looks like.
Mine was a commercial made one.
It´s a .44 Special.

Hawk

Sent from my motorola one using Tapatalk

 

[CJSmith]

I edited the original post.

 

[lamarw]

Congrats on your new (old) revolver. We have had several discussions on the Commercial versions of the Model of 1917 within the last year on this Forum. You may want to search and read those threads since they are loaded with info.

I have two as shown below. The serial numbers are 180632 and the other is 179459. I have not lettered mine but do believe they were both manufactured prior to 1926. Both of these have serial number matching stocks to the revolvers.

 

[Ray]

Info below, regards, Ray

 

[Bob L]

What a neat looking 1917, Congrats on finding it. Can we expect a range report with it? I would love to find one like that for a shooter.

 

[Jack Flash]

Am I seeing things, or is that the remnants of a Brazilian Crest on the sideplate?

 

[tenntex32]

It definitely has a commercial marked butt. (The small round S&W logo on the left side frame also tells us this was not a true delivered U.S military contract revolver.) The small eagle's head with number stamped on the rear cylinder face tells us it was assembled using leftover/spare/found U.S. military M1917 contract cylinder that had been inspected at the time of cylinder's manufacture.

Can you please post a pic of the barrel's serial number area? It may also have the small eagle's head w/ small number inspector's stamp near it.

Also, look in the area where the frame and yoke mate, there may be an eagle's head/small number inspector's mark near the assembly number on the frame.

If your rear sight area simply has the simple dished out oval then it too was an unused U.S. military contract frame.

We cannot discount the possibility of it also being one of the post-WWII Brazilian contract revolvers built with leftover/spare/found U.S. military contract frames and parts.

While there definitely looks to be some sort of circular wear pattern on the sideplate, where a Brazilian crest would normally be on one of their contract revolvers, I cannot be 100% sure that's what it really was by looking at your pic. It might just be some sort of coincidental circular wear in that area.

I have provided pics of a beautiful post-WWII Brazilian contract M1917 made using leftover/spare/found parts from the WWI U.S. military production run. Look closely and you will see it's s/n is very close to your example's s/n. (The example I posted pics of belongs to a fellow forum member and I am very jealous of him having this revolver!!!!!!)

Maybe you could provide more definitive pics of everything......especially the circular sideplate anomaly as well as any other inspector marks that may be on the revolver?

Dale

 

[moosedog]

Good eye Jack. I think your right.

 

[tenntex32]

I thought that may be the case too with regards to the possible Brazilian logo on the sideplate…….but look at one other thing that may indicate it may not be a post-WWII Brazilian contract example:

The butt s/n on the OP's example, while very close to the s/n of the Brazilian example I posted, is stamped in a manner where it is read with the barrel facing to the right.

The butt s/n of the definite post-WWII Brazilian example I posted reads with the barrel facing to the left. (I have seen several other post-WWII Brazilian contract M1917 examples built with leftover/spare U.S. contract M1917 parts and they all had their butt serial numbers read with the barrel pointing to the left.)

My gut feeling is it is a post-WWI commercial example, and not a post-WWII Brazilian contract example. Then again it may also be a post-WWI commercial example that never left the factory and was provided as part of the post-WWII Brazilian M1917 contract. In my opinion the latter would need more visible proof with regards to any Brazilian crest remnants...….or a factory letter.

One thing I have learned with S&W revolvers is "Never say never".

Dale

 

[Jack Flash]

Good eye Jack. I think your right.

Thanks, but the real eagle eye award should go to tenntex32 for spotting the eagle head on the cylinder (which I missed completely!)

I was wondering if the barrel is a replacement since its finish / wear / etc. look to be more extreme than it is on the frame and cylinder. Of course that doesn't prove anything one way or the other but Brazilian Contract revolvers were subjected to hard use in harsh conditions.

 

[tenntex32]

I'm most curious as to whether or not there actually are remnants of a Brazilian crest on the OP's sideplate……...and if the sideplate's assembly number matches the one on the frame if it does have remnants of the Brazilian crest.

Once again, to be clear, I am leaning post-WWI commercial example, and not post-WWII Brazilian contract example. (Unless something more definitive with the sideplate turns up favoring it having had the Brazilian crest...….and it and the frame having matching assembly numbers.)

Dale

 

[Ray]

Hi Dale thanks for your remarks.Another way to check if it´s one that were made from leftover parts is to observe the right side of the barrel. As I learned from you it shouldn´t have Smith&Wesson marked on.
Regards, Ray

 

[CJSmith]

Thanks for all the input. Here are the pictures of the barrel (matching serial number with eagle), inspector mark with eagle, rear sight cup and side plate which I think is just a mess but no Brazilian stamp.

 

[tenntex32]

Looking at the additional pics I still feel it is a post-WWI commercial model using the leftover U.S. contract M1917 parts.

Best of luck finding the 1920's era checkered non-medallioned stocks! (It's a real shame the numbers matching stocks aren't with it, but it is what it is.) Finding a layard ring shouldn't be too terribly difficult, but I would attempt to find one that still has it's original finish and not one that has been parkerized, etc......

Thanks for posting the additional pics. From what I have read S&W didn't make a great number of the immediate post-WWI commercial M1917 examples using the leftover/spare U.S. contract M1917 frames/parts.....thus making your example somewhat attractive for M1917 accumulators like myself.

Dale

 

[tenntex32]

The more I look at the OP's example the more I like it. (I know I'm a bit of an M1917 nerd, but that too is what it is!)

When you look at the right side frame on the OP's example, versus say lamarw's two beautiful examples in post #5, there is no "MADE IN U.S.A" stamped on the OP's example telling us once again that this is a very early immediate post-WWI commercial example. (S&W started using the "MADE IN THE U.S.A." marking on their revolvers a few years after WWI...…..and the Brazilian contract M1917 examples all have the marking as far as I know, both pre-WWII and post-WWII deliveries.)

My pre-WWII commercial example and my Brazilian M1917 1937 contract example, both from the 1930's, have the "MADE IN U.S.A." marking.

I likey the OP's early commercial.

Dale

 

[tenntex32]

Hi Dale thanks for your remarks.Another way to check if it´s one that were made from leftover parts is to observe the right side of the barrel. As I learned from you it shouldn´t have Smith&Wesson marked on.
Regards, Ray

Ray, Ray, Ray...…………….

You have something I want and we both know it.
(And now CJSmith does too!!!)

Dale

 

[murphydog]

The SN on this one puts it into the later part of the known 1917 Army serial number range; it is probably a frame that just missed being assembled into a military contract gun.

Ship dates on 1917 Commercials are all over the calendar. Later SNs have been documented to ship years (?!) before earlier numbers. A letter of authenticity would be the only way to be certain of its "birthday".

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/swhf_letter.pdf

 

[tenntex32]

The SN on this one puts it into the later part of the known 1917 Army serial number range; it is probably a frame that just missed being assembled into a military contract gun.

Ship dates on 1917 Commercials are all over the calendar. Later SNs have been documented to ship years (?!) before earlier numbers. A letter of authenticity would be the only way to be certain of its "birthday".

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/swhf_letter.pdf

Would most S&W collectors assume the OP's revolver has a post-WWI and up to 1922 birthdate due to 1922 being when S&W started using the "MADE IN U.S.A." marking on the frame?

Of course I am assuming the 1922 date is correct for the start of the "MADE IN U.S.A" marking and someone please correct me if I am wrong as to it's actual start date.

I can't help but think that not too many commercial M1917 .45acp examples left the factory not having the "MADE IN U.S.A" stamping if it started in 1922. (Immediate post-WWI I don't feel they were in huge demand by civilians based on the actual production numbers of them I've seen thrown around.)

Thanks,
Dale