Smith&Wesson sales drop by $100M. Compaired to 2016

[4506517]

I REALLY need to say this..........

I get NO JOY about posting negative statements against what I thought was the #1 Revolver Manufacturer of all time for 100 years!! I am a Member here that was weened on S&W, owns many many of them and shoot them every week. It PAINS ME GREATLY to witness what has happened to this once GREAT Company over the last two decades. No one here made their business decisions and no one here played any part in running their internal Corporation. It is what it is, so they say! For new
purchasers now to deny what has happened and is happening is NOT going to help S&W change their model and in turn S&W will tend to continue their downward slide. UNFORTUNATELY, Company's ONLY CHANGE when they loose business. If they don't loose business they think everyone loves their stuff. I doubt any of their Corporate Officers actually read the comments, problems and frustrations discussed here on the Forum. THEY SHOULD!

S&W which was once owned by "Gun People" is now owned by "Investors". They may have bailed S&W out but they (IMHO) don't really understand the business.

Look At Ruger (and I am NOT a Ruger owner at all - not even one). They are a WELL RUN GUN COMPANY that is responsible, has only improved their designs, quality, fit & finish over each and every Decade. Yes, they have had recalls, mistakes and production problems HOWEVER they have always addressed them properly! I RESPECT THAT!

The US Auto Makers produced sheer garbage for 30 years, were fed their lunches by Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. and a whole generation of young people would not even think of owning an American Car. FINALLY they GOT-IT with persistence, hard work, and much better quality, fit and finish they are now getting their foot hold back in the Industry - I hope they don't forget the past!! I only WISH S&W would figure it out as well!

^^^^^^^^ This OMG This^^^^^^^^^

While I'm sure that the political climate has something to do with it, this is a really good summary of a large part of it. I think there are a great deal of "moving parts" to the problem as a whole.

There are a ton of AR manufacturers out there right now. I'm sorry, but I shoot A LOT of ARs and I'm just not impressed with what S & W puts out. Not saying they're junk, they just are not compelling rifles....at all.

Quality. Again, my agency just dumped S & W after YEARS of limping along with the M & P. Look at S & W's past with poly framed guns....I agree that it is the current trend in pistols, but wow....

Some of the models in the revolver line just leave me scratching my head. These aren't the type or style of revolver that posted years of consistent sales.

While the political climate I'm sure has some bearing, I think the decisions made at the corporate level in the company have more than a passing effect on the sales drop.

 

[ladder13]

To the moderators, if my contribution violates policy, please ding me and remove my reply, please don't punish the other contributors.

I have grown to respect the contribution of the members of the forum, but with this thread, I think many have missed the mark! Personally, I believe that the economy is the primary culprit for the decline in sales at S&W.

Take a look at Hurricanes Harvey and Irma. The people in their path don't save up over the year in order to evacuate or have hurricane parties, or to rebuild afterwards, but they do spend money otherwise earmarked for every day expenses. While some spend on impulse, others plan their expenditures as they can afford them.

The current economy is in poor health, and many people just don't have the discretionary income to buy everything that they want! Who really knows what the national unemployment rate really is? The unemployment figures are based on new claims, and many people have exhausted the benefits they are entitled to. In the town I live in, almost 1in 6 homes is unoccupied due to foreclosure. I have had friends struggling to obtain employment ... one has been out of his chosen profession for almost ten years, and he IS grasping at any employment opportunity. He just obtained a barely above minimum wage job. Another friend is in a similar situation. The jobs are just not out there like they use to be, and people are prioritizing their expenditures.

Look at the product prices. I remember seeing a vintage S&W catalog that had J frames selling for about $80, while K frames started at about $100. The pickup I bought in '74 sold for $3000 (paid for from paper route earnings). In the late '70s to mid '80s, I purchased my Model 17 and 14 for less than $300 each. Today, a 686 has an MSRP of just around a grand, while Tupperware can be had for about $300. Yes, QC and CS can have an effect on sales, but so does the ability to afford the items! If it weren't for an extended layaway plan, my new 686+ would belong to someone else!

We can easily look at the sales figures generated by different climates, but we must ask, what had to be sacrificed in order to make those purchases possible? Not everybody is in a financial position to drop big bucks.

Any businessman knows this.

 

[LVSteve]

S&W are not the only gun company to suffer a drop in sales this year. The "clearance houses" can barely give away black rifles and the components to build them. There are also a slew of affordable bolt rifles these days. I'm guessing this is where most of S&W's sales have gone away.

We are in a golden age of affordable handgun ownership. There is huge choice and availability in serviceable polymer handguns from $275-350. You can't make a 686 or a third gen for that money, and that is where most here get cross. However, S&W is a business, and despite the hiccups in the last M&P line, LE sales is where the bulk of the money is made. Most here are fringe customers, and most mass-production gun makers see us that way. Harsh reality, but it is what it is.

 

[TTSH]

The current economy is in poor health...

I will respectfully submit to you that the overall US economy is generally in better shape right now than at the time when S&W's sales, profits and stock price were hitting their all-time highs.

But all that really tells me is that you can't directly correlate gun manufacturer sales and profits to the general health of the US economy without considering the "news of the day" and bumps in the "fear factor" that we all know can drives sales of guns and ammo right through the roof.

I submit that there are really two main forces at work here currently hurting the mothership... not just one. It is BOTH the natural good and bad sales cycles AND the various internal problems we have identified within the mothership itself.

To suggest it is one or the other alone is, IMHO, somewhat short-sighted.

 

[cmort666]

I will respectfully submit to you that the overall US economy is generally in better shape right now than at the time when S&W's sales, profits and stock price were hitting their all-time highs.

This in all likelihood is driven by two factors:

1. People no longer see an IMMEDIATE danger of an aggressive FEDERAL banning and confiscation effort, unconstrained by the rule of law.
2. While the economy is getting better for a lot of people, it JUST started getting better. Three years ago when I was working for a contractor at the Cleveland Clinic, there was one day that if I hadn't had some money left over on a pre-pay debit card that my cousin in Chicago gave me for my birthday, I literally wouldn't have made it home. I didn't have enough money for gas to drive back from the Clinic facility where I was working. That's how LITTLE money we, as IT professionals were making.

I'm working a six month to hire contract. It's the FIRST prospect of a steady job I've had since February of 2009. If I couldn't afford to buy gas to get me home, I sure couldn't afford to buy guns. I sold a gun about five years ago in order to pay my rent. I didn't replace it until about a year ago.

There are things called "lagging indicators". People don't instantly perceive an improvement in the economy. If they're uncertain, they're not going to go buying $900 handguns they don't think are going to be scarce any time soon.

What S&W is experiencing is conflicting influences of a recent increase in jobs other than temporary and minimum wage "Welcome to Walmart" positions, and a perception that the near-term danger of boots kicking in doors in search of "assault weapons" (everything from an H&R Handi-Rifle to an AR-15) has at least temporarily abated.

As long as the anti-gun cultists aren't handed any opportunities and the economy continues to recover for average, non-government workers, gun sales will return to a "normal" pace.

Six months ago, there wasn't anything wrong with the plywood sales industry in Florida. Six months from now, there won't be either. Market forces...

 

[Tom S.]

There could be a bright side to this down turn (note the word "could"). Perhaps S&W will now have time to address recent quality degradation instead trying to get everything out the door for sales. It would be a great time to retrain some of their now excess personnel to spot defects in the work process and correct them so defective product doesn't make it out of the plant, plus train some folks how to properly repair the guns that have made it out. A win-win in which the company regains it's reputation and at least some of the workers retain their jobs.


Hey, it "could" happen!


I remember working for one of the Big Three during an economic downturn. At the time, the term 'preventive maintenance' was non existent. At the same time the company, due to the then current contract with the UAW, had to pay workers 95% of their pay when laid off. I pointed out to the plant manager that instead of laying off several machine repairmen, he could have them work on checking every press (forgot to mention it was a metal stamping facility) for possible problems, rebuilding or repairing them so that when things turned around, the machinery would be in top condition and ready to rock and roll. You would have thought I suggested he grow a second head and sing a duet. The company was so big, and so disconnected that they didn't mind losing money out of one bucket as long as they didn't lose it out of another one.

The moral: just because something makes good business sense, don't expect a company to comply with that good sense.

 

[cmort666]

There could be a bright side to this down turn (note the word "could"). Perhaps S&W will now have time to address recent quality degradation instead trying to get everything out the door for sales. It would be a great time to retrain some of their now excess personnel to spot defects in the work process and correct them so defective product doesn't make it out of the plant, plus train some folks how to properly repair the guns that have made it out. A win-win in which the company regains it's reputation and at least some of the workers retain their jobs.

More importantly, they could act like the customer actually mattered and stop sticking their finger in their collective eye.

Things like the reliability and location of the lock could be rectified. Nonsense like the weird placement of the front sight on the M1917 clone could be avoided.

I don't know, maybe they could start acting like they actually cared.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Just like Marlin when Remington took them over and moved the plant and fired all the old hands, QC went into the toilet.

Why would you buy something expensive that looks and functions like it was made in a garage from scrap when other options are available?

S&W quality is non existent. Add to that the lock and MIM, forget about it!

Burrs on edges, tool marks, misaligned barrels, cheap wood, bad finish, forcing cones that look like they were made with a chisel and barrel to cylinder gaps big enough for a Popsicle stick - not looking good for S&W.

If you gave me one I'd sell it.

 

[chief38]

S&W are not the only gun company to suffer a drop in sales this year. The "clearance houses" can barely give away black rifles and the components to build them. There are also a slew of affordable bolt rifles these days. I'm guessing this is where most of S&W's sales have gone away.

We are in a golden age of affordable handgun ownership. There is huge choice and availability in serviceable polymer handguns from $275-350. You can't make a 686 or a third gen for that money, and that is where most here get cross. However, S&W is a business, and despite the hiccups in the last M&P line, LE sales is where the bulk of the money is made. Most here are fringe customers, and most mass-production gun makers see us that way. Harsh reality, but it is what it is.

Steve, you are correct in that S&W can NOT make M686 for #$350.00 We all know that. SOOOOOO let them make a spectacular M686 that IS WORTH $800 bucks and NOT a $800 excuse for a M686! NO COMPANY can be everything to everybody. That's why they make Rolex's and Timex's. Both Company's appeal to different buyers. They need to either decide which market they want to go after, maybe make a regular line and a popular priced competitive line, and at least if people choose to and can afford the better line-up there will be no excuses, no returns, no poorly inspected and sloppy guns leaving the Factory.

REMEMBER: Even during the Great Depression here in the USA, MANY Company's made lots of money! They are the Company's that produced a worthy product and some buyers would spend a years worth of income to get one KNEW they were doing the right thing.

Any Company can do OK in good times, only the smart and well run Company's can in bad times.

 

[TTSH]

I don't know, maybe they could start acting like they actually cared.

That may be asking too much in view of the fact that the mothership's sales and profits are now driven mainly by cheaply made and unlovingly, indifferently assembled plastics.

I would really like to know the breakdown in terms of sales and profits for the mothership's plasticware vs. revolvers vs. 1911's vs. AR's. That would be very telling. It might explain a lot.

I don't care about S&W's plasticware any longer and I've got all the 1911's I want. I can't buy AR's in my moonbat state since 7/20/2016 so those don't matter to me either.

All that matters to me any longer in terms of brand new S&W products are the traditional revolvers... but for reasons you all now, I've been buying new Rugers instead of new Smith & Wessons. I take no joy in that reality even as I continue to hope that S&W someday does see the light and fixed all the issues that motivate me to look elsewhere.

 

[cmort666]

All that matters to me any longer in terms of brand new S&W products are the traditional revolvers... but for reasons you all now, I've been buying new Rugers instead of new Smith & Wessons. I take no joy in that reality even as I continue to hope that S&W someday does see the light and fixed all the issues that motivate me to look elsewhere.

If I were to buy a new D/A revolver today, it would be either a 4-5" Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt(or ACP) or a Dan Wesson.

 

[Fishslayer]

Read the last part of the article, sales are still above historical standards. Cherry pick if you like.

On another website I frequent (It's Californian... and it's about guns. ) there are plenty of guys buying the new S&W revolvers & they are quite happy with them.

 

[amazingflapjack]

I haven't noticed the prices going down on collector guns-especially revolvers that don't have any extra holes. Oh, and I don't think the decrease in sales is all about who got elected-at least where S&W is concerned. JMHO.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I have only one S&W revolver with the IL: a Governor that I bought from a Forum member.

I love S&W, but -- and maybe I'm showing my age here -- not one of the current crop of their revolvers looks good to me. And it's not just the lock; the older Smiths seem to me to be better made, and of higher quality. Their finishes are certainly better, and I like their overall appearance much better.

 

[twodog max]

I am waiting and hoping for new revolver prices to come down some. Shopping and hoping for a 6 inch 629.The IL bothers me not at all as I think the hysteria is just that. None of mine have ever offered any problem. I buy guns to use and use hard not for admiration only or collectability. But that is just me.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Six months from now they may be giving you a free AR to get you to buy a case of ammo.

Now that would be the promotion of the century.

A gun dealer I know says he isn't in the gun storage business.

 

[gman51]

The slacking sales isn't just S&W as other makers are feeling the drooping sales also. Ammo makers are even laying off or closing their doors.
Obama and Hillary got the boot did have a big impact on buying/hoarding guns and ammo. The economy has had a big impact as well.
Supply and demand should bring down ammo prices and we could see less expensive new guns being offered. I think the higher priced guns will take a big hit on sales. As money gets tighter people could buy a quality $350 gun and let that $500-$1000 gun sit in the display case. A saving of hundreds of dollars can buy a lot of ammo.

 

[the ringo kid]

When they start making what I want? is when I start buying their product--and ive absolutely nothing against the company. I love wild west style guns soooooooooo.....................

 

[Tom S.]

Those waiting for S&W to drop revolver prices will have a long wait, IMHO. Here's the logic behind my thinking:

S&W emphasis for sales of handguns has been focused on semi autos. The last figures I remember seeing stated that revolvers made up something in the neighborhood of 21% of company sales. While that percentage isn't insignificant, it certainly enforces belief that company resources would center on producing semi autos during the time leading up to last year's election. Hence the rebates offered on what became overstocked semi autos produced by all companies, including S&W. Another important point to remember is revolvers, despite recent technological advances in manufacturing and machining, require far more work to make than the typical 'plastic' semi auto. More work directly equals higher prices. In order to remain profitable, S&W needs to maintain their profit margin on their products, whether semi auto or revolver.

So the point is, we saw prices on semi autos fall, only because of overstocking by the company who was betting on an election outcome that would be unfavorable to such weapons. Since that scenario didn't happen, sales to reduce inventory commenced. I do not believe there was such an oversupply of revolvers, which explains the lack of incentives on them. The only way I foresee any reduction in revolvers would be if another company started producing a product comparable to the S&W revolver line, at a lower cost. As we know, Taurus has done this for years, but their quality and service have always been second rate when compared to S&W's. This could change though if S&W continues their recent quality slide. I'm sure we all hope this quality trend is reversed and S&W resumes making revolvers that stand out as best in class at reasonable prices. As for those of you crying about locks and MIM (despite the rules), they are here to stay. Quit whining and buy something else.

 

[ladder13]

Remington tanking

Remington Arms lays off approximately 60 workers - WKTV News