Snap, Crackle, Pop - Night Firing Exercise Disaster

[panamajack310]

Hey, Great info. I also did an exercise like that but we had to start out shooting through the windshield. Very interesting...I used 158 grain 357 MAG. in a model 19-4 2.5"bbl. It is frightening how accurately you can shoot through a car windshield. The next time we had to shoot through the passenger side window.WINDOW DOWN,, at an attacker. I personally did not have any problems..Of course I did not have a ported gun...

 

[sw282]

Loudest pistol I ever heard was a Ruger BH in 30 CARBINE. I shot it w/plugs & muffs on . It still seemed loud. I wonder how it would be ported. Our gun club does not allow ported weapons on the range.

 

[Sgt 127]

Gunshots are wierd on how they are perceived. Depending on what your level of "excitement" is when the rounds go off.

I was five feet from a guy that fired a .25 auto in a small room. I never even heard the gun go off. Me and another Officer were tasked with doing a hostage rescue (of his hostage) at the time.

Been in the same room went an MP-5 was fired. Sorta heard a little pop as I passed the problem and went into the kitchen where I was focused on getting.

Suspect 30 feet away from me with a .270. Fired a round, I heard it, No ringing of the ears, nothing.

I've been around quite a few gunshots in the open, usually just sound like a "pop". I can see why people say "It sounded like fireworks or something"

Now...if your timing gets off, or, your partner throws a Thunderflash and it bounces off the screen door and lands right in front of you...thats loud...really loud...but, still wasn't disabling.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
If you think about it , porting on a revolver should not change the
sound level as the cb gap is still there porting or no and
if the barrel is in inside the room or car etc. the sound pressure is the same.
The burning on the chest is due to the cb gap in most cases as this is the
the "port' nearest the body.
The speed of the gas from the ports will be lower that the cb gap
as that gap is much smaller in size [like gas cutting on a frame]
I have done many night shoots and a few in room shoots at
various classes, and have found the flash can be handled if you treat
it like the bright lights when passing a car at night,[ don't look at the headlights look between them at the L-plate.
The noise is bad to verry bad with any high pressure round[ 9mm,
357 sig ,357 mag , 40sw, 41mag, 10mm 44 mag, even 38 super]
only the low pressure round will be less [38 spec, 41 police,44 spec,
45acp, 45 colt] as they are sub sonic and the gass pressure/speed
is lower,this caused sounds in the lower range/base as
opposed to the high pressure /hi frequency that hurt more.

 

[Snowbandit]

I foolishly spent a ton of money on my one and only ported revolver back in the mid 80's. I found a beautiful bright nickle, P&R model 29 with 8 3/8 inch barrel new in the box wooden box. I bought it for a fair price and immediately sent it off to Mag-Na-Port where I paid to have the nickle stripped off. The barrel was cut to 2 1/2 inches and ported. Grips were cut to round butt style, the hammer bobbed, trigger narrowed and action converted to single action only. Mag-Na-Port did one of the best action jobs on this gun I've ever felt. After all the other work was done they renickled it in matt nickle and returned it to me. You don't even want to know how much I had "invested" in this thing and I damned sure don't want my wife to know even now! I also had a custom holster made for it as I intended to use it off duty. Anyway, gun was a total waste of my time and, even more so, money. It was so loud even outside with specials I couldn't stand to shoot it more that a few rounds at a time. Even with hearing protection the blast from this thing was unbelieveable.

Now, I'm not a total wimp with these things either. I had then and still have today a 3 inch model 29, 4 inch 629 Mountain Revolver (later gave this one to my son) and 4 inch 629 Mountain Lion that I shoot regulary with fairly heavy loads. But a ported 2 1/2 inch 29? That was a waste of a really nice revolver that someone here would probably like to have had in their collection. I sold it and really took a beating on it as well I should have. Dumb....... really dumb.

 

[festus1]

In my experience the flash from a ported revolver is a non issue at night if you have a good powerful flashlight. I have had the good fortune to have had a place to shoot at night. Without a good light porting is an issue, but then a much bigger issue in that case is shooting into the dark at who knows what?? There is also no more than 80 fps velocity loss in my ported 3" L-comp vs. my non ported 3" 681. The ported gun may be louder - I can't tell the difference with muffs on. (What IS louder is a friend's short barreled glock in 357 sig.) If I have to shoot in a car or confined space it will be because the alternative is death or great bodily harm. At that point I'll want all the power and control I can get (a ported 357). I’d rather be around to get fitted for a hearing aid than be fitted for a coffin. The muzzle flip in the ported 586 is much less than in the non ported 681. Ports help with muzzle flip – the recoil is the same. After running both guns thru an IDPA stage with a timer and then scoring the targets it is very quantifiable which gun I would rather have in a gun fight. Keeping the speed as close as possible the L-comp gave better hits by a good margin when using full power .357 ammo. With +p ammo the difference was not much at all. If I went with 38 or 38+p I’d definitely prefer a gun with out ports. With full power 357 ammo I feel better with the ported gun. Again, I can’t speak directly to the quantifiable difference between the 2 guns in terms of loudness. If I can find my notes I’ll post the velocity tests between the 2 guns with various ammo. What I do remember is that there was a big difference in velocity between 38+p ammo and 357 ammo in either gun.

I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind – just sharing what I have found.

 

[Crazy K38]

you know I keep readin about how you guys don't to be deaf or blind, but what I think is if I am shooting in an inclosed space it's because I am going to die if I don't and in that situation I want the highest impact penetration and velocity I can get, to hell with comfort

 

[Beemer-mark]

Ported guns

Damn ported guns. I truly cannot imagine why people would buy 'em like that.

Boy, I couldn't have said it better. About a decade ago I bought a brand new Springfield 1911 target pistol with a ported barrel. I bought if for the other features and didn't really think about the ported barrel.

It's not that the ported barrel makes it just loud, it's at a frequency that would break glass. The flames are cool, unless you want a follow up shot. And then wait until you try to clean it.

I've shot thousands of rounds thru that pistol. It's probably the most accurate 1911 I have. I wear ear plugs and ear muffs even thought at my age I'm almost deaf. I hate, I mean hate cleaning it. I could never imagine a carry pistol with a ported barrel.

I had a friend that bought a Browning with a ported barrel for prairie dogs. The ports are down, can you imagine what happens when your prone and fire a high power round with the muzzle blast into the dirt!!!

 

[sasu]

porting on a revolver should not change the sound level

Porting redirects some of the blast back towards the shooter and a lot of blast to the sides. That is why porting affects muzzle rise.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Gunshots are wierd on how they are perceived. Depending on what your level of "excitement" is when the rounds go off.

I was five feet from a guy that fired a .25 auto in a small room. I never even heard the gun go off. Me and another Officer were tasked with doing a hostage rescue (of his hostage) at the time.

Been in the same room went an MP-5 was fired. Sorta heard a little pop as I passed the problem and went into the kitchen where I was focused on getting.

Suspect 30 feet away from me with a .270. Fired a round, I heard it, No ringing of the ears, nothing.

I've been around quite a few gunshots in the open, usually just sound like a "pop". I can see why people say "It sounded like fireworks or something"

Now...if your timing gets off, or, your partner throws a Thunderflash and it bounces off the screen door and lands right in front of you...thats loud...really loud...but, still wasn't disabling.

Just last night, during a training scenario, a "suspect" fired a loud blank round less than 25 feet from me down a hallway. I barely heard the report, even though it was in an eclosed space.

 

[Revolver_Fan]

My 2 Cents Worth on The Subject

Handgun flash and bang always seems to be a devisive topic. There are those that believe flash & bang are overstated - even to the point of being irrelevant - while on the other hand, there is the camp that supports the notion that they are underestimated.

I subscribe to the second group. It is my observation that flash & bang from short-barreled and ported revolvers are rarely given any consideration. Since your life may depend upon how you and your weapon perform, I think it is a mistake to give flash & bang such short shrift.

In fact, the deleterious effects of flash & bang are the very basis for the renowned M82 Stun Grenade - better known as a "Flash-Bang." This non-lethal weapon was developed precisely to harness the powerful effects of flash & bang:

"Stun grenades are used to confuse, disorient, or momentarily distract a potential threat for up to five seconds. A "flashbang" can seriously degrade the combat effectiveness of affected personnel for up to a minute." This information can be found at ShadowSpear Special Operations - M82 Flashbang.

Additionally, the decibel ratings of a 357 magnum and the M82 are significantly close - even on the logarithmic scale of sound intensity measurements (decibels, dB).

At HandGunInfo.com: SIG357: 357 SIG Blast: Environmental Noise Decibel Ratings we find the following table:

Here's a short list of Environmental Noise decibel ratings:

dB Environmental Noise

10 Normal breathing
50 Interior home noise
70 Crowded restaurant
80 City traffic
85 Hearing Damage Possible
90 Lawn mower
120 Threshold of Pain
120 Siren
130 Jackhammer
140 Jet engine at takeoff
152 .22 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
157 .45 ACP pistol
160 9mm pistol
164 .357 Magnum revolver
170 M82 Stun Grenade (“Flash-Bang”)

NOTE: The last item above was found at ShadowSpear Special Operations - M82 Flashbang

Flash & bang are flash & bang. There is no substantive quantitative or qualitative difference on whether flash & bang comes from a gun, a grenade, a rocket engine, or what have you.

The critical point is that handgun flash & bang can negatively affect accuracy and speed. Any degradation of either in a gunfight can get one killed.

Flash & Bang are something that should be taken into consideration. Afterall, choosing a handgun type-caliber-ammo combination is a process of evaluation and compromise. We're always trying to reach a balance between multiple diametrically opposed areas - size, weight, power, speed, reliability, etc, etc, etc. Flash & bang should fit into those considerations and compromises.

 

[akjaeger]

I know a couple of guys who set off a 7mm Remington Magnum in the front of a regular cab pickup. They were just passing a church on Sunday morning as all the churchgoers were standing on the curb. They shot out their own front tire! I guess it was kind of embarrassing.
They said it was pretty loud, but both can still hear as good as anybody 20 years later.

 

[Revolver_Fan]

Purchase of Quad-Ported PC Model 13-4

Ah, someone noticed I'm searching (on the WTB section of this forum) for a Performance Center Model 13-4 with Quad Mag-Na-Ports.

Yes...I've owned three.

I like this revolver loaded with Federal Nyclad 125 gr. or Winchester 145 gr. SilverTips. I prefer the Nyclad load to the SilverTips.

All of the previous ones that I've owned handled beautifully and shot terrific. Expect the same when I find another.

 

[Revolver_Fan]

Some Further Refinements

Handgun flash and bang always seems to be a devisive topic. There are those that believe flash & bang are overstated - even to the point of being irrelevant - while on the other hand, there is the camp that supports the notion that they are underestimated.

I subscribe to the second group. It is my observation that flash & bang from short-barreled and ported revolvers are rarely given any consideration. Since your life may depend upon how you and your weapon perform, I think it is a mistake to give flash & bang such short shrift.

In fact, the deleterious effects of flash & bang are the very basis for the renowned M82 Stun Grenade - better known as a "Flash-Bang." This non-lethal weapon was developed precisely to harness the powerful effects of flash & bang:

"Stun grenades are used to confuse, disorient, or momentarily distract a potential threat for up to five seconds. A "flashbang" can seriously degrade the combat effectiveness of affected personnel for up to a minute." This information can be found at ShadowSpear Special Operations - M82 Flashbang.

Additionally, the decibel ratings of a 357 magnum and the M82 are significantly close - even on the logarithmic scale of sound intensity measurements (decibels, dB).

At HandGunInfo.com: SIG357: 357 SIG Blast: Environmental Noise Decibel Ratings we find the following table:

Here's a short list of Environmental Noise decibel ratings:

dB Environmental Noise

10 Normal breathing
50 Interior home noise
70 Crowded restaurant
80 City traffic
85 Hearing Damage Possible
90 Lawn mower
120 Threshold of Pain
120 Siren
130 Jackhammer
140 Jet engine at takeoff
152 .22 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
157 .45 ACP pistol
160 9mm pistol
164 .357 Magnum revolver
170 M82 Stun Grenade (“Flash-Bang”)

NOTE: The last item above was found at ShadowSpear Special Operations - M82 Flashbang.

Flash & bang are flash & bang. There is no substantive quantitative or qualitative difference on whether flash & bang comes from a gun, a grenade, a rocket engine, or what have you. What I mean here is that a decibel is a decibel no matter its source. Here's a very simple example: a square 45 lb and round 45 lb weight are equivalent despite the obvious difference in shape.

The critical point to all of this is that handgun flash & bang can negatively affect accuracy and speed. Any degradation of either in a gunfight can get one killed. A magnum load in a ported revolver does no one any good if, after the first shot, they are "dazed and confused."

Flash & Bang are something that should be taken into consideration. Afterall, choosing a handgun type-caliber-ammo combination is a process of evaluation and compromise. We're always trying to reach a balance between multiple diametrically opposed areas - size, weight, power, speed, reliability, etc, etc, etc. Flash & bang should fit into those considerations and compromises.

In the end, it may very well be the difference between life and death.

 

[Revolver_Fan]

I'd also like to point out that I'm not against ported barrels. Porting serves a legitimate purpose.

However, training must be adjusted to take into account the liabilities that porting can present.

 

[Sgt 127]

"Stun grenades are used to confuse, disorient, or momentarily distract a potential threat for up to five seconds. A "flashbang" can seriously degrade the combat effectiveness of affected personnel for up to a minute." This information can be found at ShadowSpear Special Operations - M82 Flashbang.

Having been around alot of Thunderflash devices, both in training and in application, their effectiveness is based on surprise. If you are the one throwing the flash, or, you know its coming, its not nearly as distracting.

Case in point, our ram makes a very distinctive sound. It has a sliding weight in it. When ramming a door there was a specific series of sounds. The "wham" of the door being hit. The "clank" of the sliding weight hitting the end of its travel. The door flying open. The pop of the fuze and three seconds later, the "bang" of the flash.

In a particular neighborhood, I noticed the same guy at two warrants over a week long period. (He seemed to always be in dope houses, just hanging out) We hit a third house the next week. We rammed the door, I peeked in just as I threw the flash and he was quietly sitting in a chair, eyes closed and his ears covered with his hands, waiting patiently for the "bang" that he knew was coming in three seconds.

He had figured out that when he heard the distinctive sounds of a Tac team comin by, there was always going to be a big bang, therefore, he was ready for it. A T-flash would have had little, or no affect on him, much the same way as it didn't affect us.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

An excellent point, Sgt 127. I have a story somewhere around here of a tac team that was using flashbangs at every room entry they made. By the time they made it to the room where their suspect was holed up, they'd used 3-4 flashbangs and he could hear what was coming. On the entry, he was sufficiently inured to the whole thing that it didn't have the desired effect.

 

[bk43]

I had an "experience" in a windowless, small cabin out in the woods with a .357 years ago. I thought I was going to go blind and deaf plus my head felt like it was all bloated and in a vise. Based on that, and a couple other factors, I will not consider a .357 for self defense. If you really want to enjoy a similar experience, go to your friendly local indoor range and try a couple shots without ears and the lights off.

.38 special +P or .44 special max for me these days around the house(backed up by a Mossy of course).

Bob

 

[Practical]

I think that a lot of the ported gun bashing is overblown. If you shoot a .357 Magnum in a car (or in a wide open space, for that matter), without hearing protection, you will suffer hearing damage. Ported or not ported, the .357 Magnum is loud. Very loud.

I recently took a 3 1/2" M27, 2 1/2" M19 & 3" 586 L-Comp to an indoor range. I didn't notice a difference in noise level, when firing the ported L-Comp.

I also don't think that porting a .357 Magnum lowers the velocity to anywhere near a .38 Special level.

Guess that makes me a Bozo.

Most people who curse ported guns do not own them or shoot them.

Magnum guns are very NOISY period.

The barrel gap can hurt you with revolvers. I know I was burned by powder/crud flying out of the gap shooting a 357 magnum revolver from the hip.