So… is the Beretta M9 still the Worst?

The slide trick was an LA thing and a bit of a fad. Why take the slide when you can take the whole gun? LA Police dealt with a lot of nonsense over the years. When they had the K38's in the clam shell holsters ; kids learned where the release button was and would push it and let the gun fall on the ground.
 
That one is absolutely true. If you pull the trigger hard enough, you'll break the lockwork (most likely the hand) in your revolver before you overcome the friction of even a relatively light grip wrapped around the cylinder. Same if you tried to pull the trigger inside a well-fitting leather holster that grips the outside of the cylinder. Small parts will break before the cylinder rotates.
I did this very move while teaching a CCW class once. A lady had a squib, the bullet was peeping far enough out of the muzzle for me to observe to the side and behind the firing line, I called "cease fire" repeatedly she continued to execute her next shot, I grabbed the gun across the top strap binding up the cylinder rotation, without yanking it out of her hand. When I finally got her to release the pressure on the trigger and explain what happened she turned "white as a ghost" while while telling me she hadn't done anything wrong. But she had, she continued to execute a shot after cease fire was called. I taught CCW classes for 23 years.
 
Mostly jacketed.
The diameter isn't as critical with jacketed bullets; .355 or .356 will work fine as you know. With cast bullets, I've found that .357 or .358 (maybe .359 in some instances) will provide better accuracy and aren't prone to leading if the alloy used is compatible with the velocity.

A .355 or .356 cast bullet will work (good accuracy and no leading) if the if the velocity /pressure is to the point the bullet will obturate (swell up) as it enters the bore. Some handloaders may give up in frustration before they reach that point in their load development. I've been there.

Exceptions to all this, but generally the above works as described.
 
The diameter isn't as critical with jacketed bullets; .355 or .356 will work fine as you know. With cast bullets, I've found that .357 or .358 (maybe .359 in some instances) will provide better accuracy and aren't prone to leading if the alloy used is compatible with the velocity.

A .355 or .356 cast bullet will work (good accuracy and no leading) if the if the velocity /pressure is to the point the bullet will obturate (swell up) as it enters the bore. Some handloaders may give up in frustration before they reach that point in their load development. I've been there.

Exceptions to all this, but generally the above works as described.
I concur with your comments. Most of my handgun shooting has been at 25 yards or less, I am happy if I can place 99% of them on a piece of typing paper from the draw. 8x11 typing paper is about the size of the average chest cavity.
 
I did this very move while teaching a CCW class once. A lady had a squib, the bullet was peeping far enough out of the muzzle for me to observe to the side and behind the firing line, I called "cease fire" repeatedly she continued to execute her next shot, I grabbed the gun across the top strap binding up the cylinder rotation, without yanking it out of her hand. When I finally got her to release the pressure on the trigger and explain what happened she turned "white as a ghost" while while telling me she hadn't done anything wrong. But she had, she continued to execute a shot after cease fire was called. I taught CCW classes for 23 years.

Typical. Glad you were more aware than she was.
 
I read a reloading article in one of the gun magazines. The author purported from his empirical research, the bore diameter of 9mm firearms were .357-.358 not .355-.356. Now since I was 15 years old (62 years) I have been loading .355-.356 dia bullets.
Same here. Many European 9mm even mike out as little as .354. Just a couple of days ago I was researching info on the Colt Python and some Yahoo of a so called gun writer stated the original Python had a 2 piece barrel. I just threw his info where it belonged right into the trash.

When it comes to handloading I have read more misinformation than any other subject about guns and shooting. One of the biggest laughs is the misinformation about what bullet size to use ( bore size or 1 thousandth over) that has been repeated by gun writers for years, most of whom probably never casted a lead bullet in their lives. If the chamber will except an oversize cast bullet I have gone as much as 3 or 4 thousandths oversize resulting in rifles of zero leading. The reason is that there is no such thing as a unform bore. Even custom made barrels have loose and tight spots and some factory barrels are so bad you can even feel the loose and tight spots by pushing a tight dry patch down through the bore.

Since I have so many 9x19 pistols I had to come up with a "universal lead bullet size" which is .355. A Buddy of mine who only has a few 9x19 guns was able to get away with sizing his to .357. He tried .358 because one of his old manuals recommended it and of course he got some very bad jams with that bullet size not wanting to chamber. The idea behind using the largest bullet size is to reduce or eliminate leading. My .355 universal size does cause a bit of leading in some of my 9x19 pistols but a little elbow grease with a bronze brush and Hoppe's No. 9 takes it right out.

In case anyone is interested the book published way back in 1900 by Dr. Mann "The Bullets Flight" when lead bullets were common in rifles is a fascinating read on what causes inaccuracy in firearms. Dr. Mann is often considered the Father of modern Ballistics. There are lots of pictures of groups shot in the book as well. Much of what Dr. Mann found in 1900 is still useful today.
 
Jacketed or lead bullets?
I am sure the OP was speaking about lead bullets. I read the same trash article he read years ago and have been laughing about it ever since. The bore size of most European 9x19 pistols is .354 to .355. If your chamber is sloppy enough it causes no harm to go bigger in size and this will reduce leading substantially. On the other hand a buddy of mine jammed his Glock up good with oversize .358 bullets and Glocks are noted for way oversize chambers. I might add the Yahoo of a gun writer who published that info, if he had actually loaded .358 lead bullets would have seen it often bulges the 9mm case because its tapered inside.

When dealing with the 9x19 not only is there variations in chamber and bore size but variations in case wall thickness between brands and variations in the extractor groove of the case between brands.

Although its fun and cheap to pick up once fired range brass sometimes its not worth the headaches of getting so many variations in case dimensions when you attempt to hand load for it.

Of course I have had problems in case wall thickness with the much worshiped .45 acp going so far as to be forced to send my sizing die back to RCBS who custom built me a sizing die for the brand of brass I was using at the time because the jacketed bullets were falling down inside the cases.

I have noticed that for every 1,000 discarded 9x19 once fired cases on the range I am lucky these days to see only a few discarded .45 acp cases or .40 S&W cases proving which caliber is the most popular without having to read the crap you read in the Gun Rags.
 
I am sure the OP was speaking about lead bullets. I read the same trash article he read years ago and have been laughing about it ever since. The bore size of most European 9x19 pistols is .354 to .355. If your chamber is sloppy enough it causes no harm to go bigger in size and this will reduce leading substantially. On the other hand a buddy of mine jammed his Glock up good with oversize .358 bullets and Glocks are noted for way oversize chambers. I might add the Yahoo of a gun writer who published that info, if he had actually loaded .358 lead bullets would have seen it often bulges the 9mm case because its tapered inside.

When dealing with the 9x19 not only is there variations in chamber and bore size but variations in case wall thickness between brands and variations in the extractor groove of the case between brands.

Although its fun and cheap to pick up once fired range brass sometimes its not worth the headaches of getting so many variations in case dimensions when you attempt to hand load for it.

Of course I have had problems in case wall thickness with the much worshiped .45 acp going so far as to be forced to send my sizing die back to RCBS who custom built me a sizing die for the brand of brass I was using at the time because the jacketed bullets were falling down inside the cases.

I have noticed that for every 1,000 discarded 9x19 once fired cases on the range I am lucky these days to see only a few discarded .45 acp cases or .40 S&W cases proving which caliber is the most popular without having to read the crap you read in the Gun Rags.
Early in my 9mm cast bullet experimentation, I attempted to try my handloads in a friend's Glock. First round locked it up tight during chambering. My loads worked perfectly in several other pistols. I'm not a Glock disciple anyway. I seldom load or shoot any 9mm pistol nowadays, much preferring .45 ACP guns and ammo, but I had very good results and brass longevity with once-fired Winchester 9mm brass that I've been using for more than thirty years. You won't get unsightly bulges when using .357 or .358 cast bullets.

I've tried mixed pickup brass and it's worked okay, but it will never work better than same headstamp brass and preferably from the same batch. Even new 9mm brass is inexpensive, especially when you consider how many times it can be loaded.
 
As far as people bad mouthing the Beretta M9 I have always liked the pistol if you know its limitations. I once saw a custom M9 with a screw in barrel bushing. It was done for maximum accuracy in competition. Do you really need that kind of accuracy in a defense gun? I do not think so. My Italian and American Beretta's give me all the accuracy I need.

It is true some Military M9's blew up because of a steady diet of Military Plus P Plus loads. Beretta later put a "hump" in the slide rails and put in an oversize hammer pin to deflect any sharpnel if the slide blew up from too many hot loads. The average guy would never put that many loads through his gun, especially the super expensive Plus P Plus loads.

The Beretta M9 was developed off of the Walther P38 locking system which had the same problem of cracked slides as the slide is very thin like the Beretta's. I once had an oddball French P38 (P1)) police post war aluminum frame gun that had the slide rails built up at the factory. Whether this was a factory experimental or a permanent modification I was never able to find out. I wish now I had never sold it because of its rarity.

Both of my Beretta 9x19 guns have been extremely reliable and the extra sighting radius is an advantage when shooting it. Trigger pulls are decent. Sights are visible.

In my humble opinion when the M9 was replaced by the Military the H&K P30s and P30sk should have been chosen as the new military handguns as they are perhaps one of the safest pistols ever designed giving you the choice of carrying them hammer down with safety on or off, hammer cocked with safety on and of course they have a decocker as well. Their accuracy and reliability are legendary. The only criticism is that they do have a plasticky frame but I have seen some plastic pistols survive a fall onto cement better than aluminum frame guns which often go snap, crackle, and pop when they hit concrete.

Other brands of aluminum framed guns to name just a few, have been known to crack early in life from recoil such as the Walther P88 (holy grail of the Walther 9x19's), the S&W 39, Post War aluminum frame P38 (P1) the Colt .45 acp Commander, and the modern Polish P98 9x19 (almost unknown here in the U.S. and my P98 frame did indeed crack). It was an ex- Polish Prison guard pistol and probably had a lot of rounds fired out of it.

I might note that late in the final production of the last of the aluminum frame P38's had a hexagonal steel pin installed crossways through the frame to absorb the recoil of the slide and this new modification was carried over into the P4 Walther and P5 Walther police pistols. The P5 had many other modifications too numerous to mention here. Its one of my favorite "safe queens" as I do not carry it because of its high value, low capacity, and very thick slide. I think if Walther had made the P5 as a high capacity pistol it would have lasted years longer in the marketplace. The shooting world lost a great handgun when the P5 was discontinued. It was way more accurate and reliable than the P1 and P4 Walthers. Never pass one up at a decent price (if there is such a thing these days).
 
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As far as people bad mouthing the Beretta M9 I have always liked the pistol if you know its limitations. I once saw a custom M9 with a screw in barrel bushing. It was done for maximum accuracy in competition. Do you really need that kind of accuracy in a defense gun? I do not think so. My Italian and American Beretta's give me all the accuracy I need.

It is true some Military M9's blew up because of a steady diet of Military Plus P Plus loads. Beretta later put a "hump" in the slide rails and put in an oversize hammer pin to deflect any sharpnel if the slide blew up from too many hot loads. The average guy would never put that many loads through his gun, especially the super expensive Plus P Plus loads.

The Beretta M9 was developed off of the Walther P38 locking system which had the same problem of cracked slides as the slide is very thin like the Beretta's. I once had an oddball French P38 (P1)) police post war aluminum frame gun that had the slide rails built up at the factory. Whether this was a factory experimental or a permanent modification I was never able to find out. I wish now I had never sold it because of its rarity.

Both of my Beretta 9x19 guns have been extremely reliable and the extra sighting radius is an advantage when shooting it. Trigger pulls are decent. Sights are visible.

In my humble opinion when the M9 was replaced by the Military the H&K P30s and P30sk should have been chosen as the new military handguns as they are perhaps one of the safest pistols ever designed giving you the choice of carrying them hammer down with safety on or off, hammer cocked with safety on and of course they have a decocker as well. Their accuracy and reliability are legendary. The only criticism is that they do have a plasticky frame but I have seen some plastic pistols survive a fall onto cement better than aluminum frame guns which often go snap, crackle, and pop when they hit concrete.

Other brands of aluminum framed guns to name just a few, have been known to crack early in life from recoil such as the Walther P88 (holy grail of the Walther 9x19's), the S&W 39, Post War aluminum frame P38 (P1) the Colt .45 acp Commander, and the modern Polish P98 9x19 (almost unknown here in the U.S. and my P98 frame did indeed crack). It was an ex- Polish Prison guard pistol and probably had a lot of rounds fired out of it.

I might note that late in the final production of the last of the aluminum frame P38's had a hexagonal steel pin installed crossways through the frame to absorb the recoil of the slide and this new modification was carried over into the P4 Walther and P5 Walther police pistols. The P5 had many other modifications too numerous to mention here. Its one of my favorite "safe queens" as I do not carry it because of its high value, low capacity, and very thick slide. I think if Walther had made the P5 as a high capacity pistol it would have lasted years longer in the marketplace. The shooting world lost a great handgun when the P5 was discontinued. It was way more accurate and reliable than the P1 and P4 Walthers. Never pass one up at a decent price (if there is such a thing these days).
I seldom shoot 9mm these days, but a lot of good and factual things have been said about the Beretta in this thread.

As for the P4 Walther, I've had one of these for many years. With cast bullets, it's very accurate. It's been so long since I fired jacketed bullets in it, I can't remember how they did.
 
Have you ever seen anyone perform that trick in real life? I've seen people try, when that urban legend came up with a group of Marines and someone said "prove it." Each of us took turns with an unloaded M9, and nobody could do it unless the holder of the gun literally stood there and did nothing while the "aggressor" manipulated the takedown controls. As far as snatching the slide off the top of the gun from someone who really wants to keep it, I think that would be a great way to get shot. Maybe it worked once in a Steven Seagal movie or something.
I have seen two variations on how to disarm a man with a handgun. One was by Massad Ayoob who cautioned never to do it only as a last desperate resort.

You push the handgun out of the way with your weak hand (your hand is on his forearm) and at the same time pivot your body sideways to avoid being shot if the gun then goes off. You grab the gun by the barrel and pull down wrenching the gun out of the bad guys hand and then hit the guy in the eye or head as hard as you can with the barrel of the gun.

The other variation was to pivot the gun up not down.
 
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