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So S&W claims to have invented the revolver?
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deadin
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I believe that S&W's claim is to the first cartridge revolver........
And they bought the patent for that from another party, or so goes the story. To be more correct, they obtained patent rights on the bored thru cylinder. Colt was several years ahead on the revolver, and there were probably others before them.
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S&WIowegan
US Veteran
Yes, the patent was owned by Rollin White which may be one of those inexplicable wonders since I strongly imagine other minds had similar ideas. S&W also very cannily required White to defend his patent against all violators ....a task of great dimensions. The patent office denied White's application for an extension in the early 1870s and the rest is history.
Brian in SLC
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S&W Model 1 the first cartridge revolver in the US?
Lefaucheux Model 1854 the first cartridge revolver...in the world?
Great ol' history!
Lefaucheux Model 1854 the first cartridge revolver...in the world?
Great ol' history!
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Still, the flintlock piece in the original post is a fascinating and beautiful weapon. Not a lot of laughs to reload...
DWalt
Member
Yes. And it had the bored-through cylinder chambers for pinfire cartridges, patented by Lefaucheux in France in 1854 - prior to Rollin White's 1855 US patent. Poor Rollin White - he spent all of his patent royalty money defending his patent. While White worked for Colt as a contractor, apparently Colt wasn't interested in his idea.
The first production (but on a small scale) revolver was the Collier flintlock revolver which was manufactured in England from 1819 onward. As previously stated, there were other similar revolvers made even earlier, but flintlock ignition was not too practical for designing a revolver. There has always been a suspicion that Sam Colt may have seen one of these British Collier revolvers on his sea voyages and was inspired by it.
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IIRC: The main Rollin White patent was for the "bored through" cylinder, which required the newly attained (from LeFachaux :: spelling) cartridge type ammunition, first available in only ... what would be compared to what we now know as .... .22 short. LeFacheaux first made a rimfire .22 cal. with either BB shot projectile or something very similar to that.
DWalt
Member
The direct ancestor of the .22 RF metallic cartridge used in the first S&W revolvers was the Flobert, invented in France in the mid-1840s, essentially like a percussion cap with a lead ball as a bullet. It was originally used in gallery or salon (saloon) rifles (salons essentially being gathering rooms). Many of the French nobility (what was left of it) and the upper classes had salon shooting galleries in their homes and in private clubs for amusement.
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Yes, I stand corrected. Flobert from France. S&W made some sort of deal with Flobert for the use of the "cartridge" (my bad, and I have 2 old Flobert single shot .22 pistols). What I didn't understand is that as frugal as Horace Smith & DB Wesson were, why they actually bought rights to use the cartridge when (in those days) there was very little or no respect nor regard for patents out of USA... unless Flobert filed a US Patent. Did they ?
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So S&W claims to have invented the revolver?
Smith & Wesson made no claim on having the first revolver that I'm aware of. There is evidence that revolvers in some form or another were being produced in the late 18th century, but it was Samuel Colt that popularized it (and patented it in the late 1830's). Smith & Wesson's claim was for a revolver with bored through cylinders and rimmed cartridge ammunition, which is a more complex claim historically since forms of that design had already been patented in France and Belgium.
Patent laws were well established and in force by the time Smith & Wesson came around, but the question of a patent's novelty when there were prior foreign patents hadn't been tested in the courts. Rollin White and Smith & Wesson shouldn't have won their case against Ethan Allen in my humble option, but they did for whatever political reasons were afoot.
White agreed to defend the patent when he licensed it to S&W. There was nothing underhanded about it; he just hadn't thought through the consequences of the patent being so wildly popular. Caveat emptor.
Mike
Smith & Wesson made no claim on having the first revolver that I'm aware of. There is evidence that revolvers in some form or another were being produced in the late 18th century, but it was Samuel Colt that popularized it (and patented it in the late 1830's). Smith & Wesson's claim was for a revolver with bored through cylinders and rimmed cartridge ammunition, which is a more complex claim historically since forms of that design had already been patented in France and Belgium.
Patent laws were well established and in force by the time Smith & Wesson came around, but the question of a patent's novelty when there were prior foreign patents hadn't been tested in the courts. Rollin White and Smith & Wesson shouldn't have won their case against Ethan Allen in my humble option, but they did for whatever political reasons were afoot.
White agreed to defend the patent when he licensed it to S&W. There was nothing underhanded about it; he just hadn't thought through the consequences of the patent being so wildly popular. Caveat emptor.
Mike
Here'w what Wiki writes: Rollin White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Wiki article is so-so. Having spent the last two years writing a thesis on this topic, I can say that it neither deals with the complex implications that this case had in establishing judicial precedent around foreign patents, and it also doesn't do justice to the novelty and viability of White's patent model.
As I said before, I don't think White should have won the suit, but I also know that political and economic realities cloud judicial decisions more often than we'd like to admit.
That said, I maintain that Smith & Wesson's design was the single most important advance since Colt's revolver, and it remained the most important until Browning's automatic and Glock's reinvention of that design. Just my humble opinion, of course ...
Mike
As I said before, I don't think White should have won the suit, but I also know that political and economic realities cloud judicial decisions more often than we'd like to admit.
That said, I maintain that Smith & Wesson's design was the single most important advance since Colt's revolver, and it remained the most important until Browning's automatic and Glock's reinvention of that design. Just my humble opinion, of course ...
Mike
Skeetr57
Member
Samuel Colt's big improvement to revolver design was the invention of the pawl and ratchet to advance the cylinder from one chamber to the next. The patent on that prevented serious competition until 1857 when Remington brought out a better design than Colt, and S&W brought out their model 1.
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I contend that Remington's improvements, important as they were, were incremental when compared to Smith & Wesson's design on the Model 1. But good point about Colt, and it's a good reminder that a patent monopoly often has little to do with who actually "invented" something.
Mike
Mike
gwpercle
Member
So just where is the "claim" that S&W "invented" the revolver ?
You read that on the internet somewhere ? And we all know if you read it on the net it must be true.
I think a fellow named Colt might have a little something to do with it, a patent or two , ...but even he didn't invent the revolver.....that idea has been around a long time . And like most things little improvements made over the years ended up into what we call the revolver. No one person or company can claim to have "invented" it.
Gary
You read that on the internet somewhere ? And we all know if you read it on the net it must be true.
I think a fellow named Colt might have a little something to do with it, a patent or two , ...but even he didn't invent the revolver.....that idea has been around a long time . And like most things little improvements made over the years ended up into what we call the revolver. No one person or company can claim to have "invented" it.
Gary
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It's a lot like the milling machine. Many claim to have invented it (including Eli Whitney), but Joseph Wickham Roe's excellent research showed that it wasn't invented by any one person, but was developed organically over a period of time.
Mike
Mike
Skeetr57
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first-model: I would dispute that the Remington solid frame design was only an incremental improvement in the development of the revolver. The S&W tip up design was not strong enough for calibers larger than .32, while with nothing but a cylinder change to one with bored through chambers, the Remington frame was sufficient for calibers up to .44.
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Good point ... but the top break design, which really just moved the hinge to a more structurally sound location, was entirely sufficient for .44. But you're right ... I'm probably not giving Remington enough credit.
Mike
Mike
