Some help with 617 : Revo Newbie with issues (dry fire, ejecting etc)

[AceBruceGary]

Hi All,
Let me begin by saying that I am very much a revolver newbie. I compete with semi's and I do all my own handy work so I am not unfamiliar with guns.

I own a model 60 and today I picked up a 617-6 that was well used but at a pretty good price.

I intend on using this for teaching purposes (taking new firearm students out to the range) so it is not going to be a safe queen.

I have a few issues i'd like to run by you guys as I'm sure you know far more than I do about this stuff. I'm looking to remedy all problems in house as I hate to send my guns out. Any help below would be greatly appreciated.


1. It seems like this gun has been dry fired quite a bit as I see marks on the cylinder. How "bad" is this? Is this worrysome or should I just write it off as a well-used gun and try not to let anyone dry fire it any more?
Can I just buy a new cylinder and throw it on the gun?
Is my firing pin damaged?
Could I just chamfer the opening with some sort of tool?

2. Missing cylinder release spring. I took this thing down completely and detail cleaned it. When I removed the cylinder release I noticed that there was no spring behind it. What would be the reason for someone to remove this? I guess I should get another one but it hasn't made too much of a difference.

3. Extremely difficult to eject. After firing a full cylinder, the spent cases are very difficult to eject. I have to take the ejector and smack it against some wood to make it work. Cases eject fine before firing, just not afterwards and it is unusually hard. Could it be caused by dry fire damage to the cylinder causing the brass to bind?

4. Shot hitting high. For some reason shots are hitting about 1 inch higher than point of aim at 30 feet. My rear sight is maxed out in terms of elevation. Is this common?

5. Cylinder is sometimes a little finicky to open. If I push on the release the cylinder will be a pain in the butt and require a bit of force to open.

6. Seriously, what is this? Here is a picture of what I originally thought was debris and crud from shooting. Its not. It's actually a metallic cancerous bulb just sitting there.

 

[k22fan]

First off, while I’m not new to revolvers and will answer for the fun of it, reposting this in the gunsmithing forum will likely bring answers from qualified gunsmiths and armorors which I am not.

"I picked up a 617-6 that was well used but at a pretty good price."

I'm curious. What was a pretty good price?

"1. It seems like this gun has been dry fired quite a bit as I see marks on the cylinder. How "bad" is this? Is this worrysome or should I just write it off as a well-used gun and try not to let anyone dry fire it any more?"

I'll assume the metal peened into your chambers is causing the stiff ejection because the brass is reforming itself around these obstructions when the brass obturates on firing. Look for the imprint of the peened cylinder metal in your fired brass to confirm this. Don't let other people dry fire it anymore without snap caps.

"Can I just buy a new cylinder and throw it on the gun?"

No. Cylinders are timed by removing metal from the ratchet and barrel cylinder gaps are adjusted to them when barrels are fitted. I take this work to my gunsmith who has the correct tools. The factory may be less expensive and sometimes they do repairs for free that are beyond what they are obligated to do. I'd ask S&W first. If you ever must try changing a cylinder as a field expedient, I've read that recycling the old ratchet makes it more likely to work.


"Is my firing pin damaged?"

It probably is not. You didn't mention any problem with missfires.

"Could I just chamfer the opening with some sort of tool?"

Yes, at the risk of creating excess headspace and missfires. A small rattail file or round ceramic stone would only remove the unwanted metal. I'd only do it myself on a cheap gun.

"2. Missing cylinder release spring. ... What would be the reason for someone to remove this?"

Revolver champion Jerry Mikilik recommends shortening this spring to relieve friction from cylinder rotation as part of a trigger job. Perhaps someone carried this idea to the extreme.

"3. Extremely difficult to eject. After firing a full cylinder, the spent cases are very difficult to eject. I have to take the ejector and smack it against some wood to make it work. Cases eject fine before firing, just not afterwards and it is unusually hard. Could it be caused by dry fire damage to the cylinder causing the brass to bind?"

See what I wrote above and until you fix the problem extract cases one at a time with a cleaning rod to avoid bending the ejector rod which you may already have done.

"4. Shot hitting high. For some reason shots are hitting about 1 inch higher than point of aim at 30 feet. My rear sight is maxed out in terms of elevation. Is this common?"

The quickest cure is to file down the rear sight blade. However, replacement rear sight blade kits were about $8 the last time I bought one from S&W. The blades come in different heights. There are instructions in the FAQ in the gunsmithing forum. The only tool you need is a small spanner wrench that is easily made from a small flat head. If you send the gun to S&W inquire if they will correct this under warranty.

"5. Cylinder is sometimes a little finicky to open. If I push on the release the cylinder will be a pain in the butt and require a bit of force to open."

Look at the front of the cylinder to see if it is dragging on the back of the barrel. While this occurs after endshake develops from wear in old revolvers yours is more likely from lead fouling build up which you obviously have a bad case of.

"6. Seriously, what is this? Here is a picture of what I originally thought was debris and crud from shooting. Its not. It's actually a metallic cancerous bulb just sitting there."

That is lead built up from spitting out the flash gap. It shouldn't be that hard to pry it off without marking the gun steel. If it rebuilds faster than normal the gun may be out of time or have a cylinder-barrel alignment problem. A range rod (a steel rod ground to land diameter) is used to check alignment with the trigger held back.

S&W is paying the shiping in both directions for warranty repairs. I recommend calling them.


Best regards

Gil

 

[stevieboy]

I agree with K22 on everything except that the buildup you mention mighht be carbon and not lead. If it's carbon it ought to come off easily with just a little probing with a dental pick or even a paper clip. Carbon buildup often is grey and a bit shiny, but it crumbles easily into a black, charcoal like substance.

 

[scooter123]

K22 covered almost everything quite well. However, I'll add some specifics that he didn't mention that may help.

First, if you are CAREFUL, I believe that you can stone each chamber to remove the burr that has resulted from the peening from that knucklehead dry firing the gun. Just take it slow, use good lighting and some reading glasses or magnifiers so you can stop when the burr has just been removed where it intruces into the chambers. You won't be able to remove the depression on the rim face but I don't think it's an issue on your gun, from the look of that peening your firing pin is hitting a bit harder than is common for the 617. Hold the stone in line with the chamber wall and only work down the high spot and stop as soon as it's blended to the level of the chamber wall. Don't remove any material from the chamber wall, all you want to do is level out that burr. BTW, this is all hand work, DO NOT TOUCH IT WITH A DREMEL. It's why nearly everyone says to NEVER dry fire a 22 caliber revolver. If you want to do some dry fire practice, save your spend casings and rotate them out after each cylinder rotation.

Shooting high. You stated that your rear sight is "maxed out", which would imply you have it as high as it will go. If so, that's the reason you're shooting high. You have to LOWER the rear sight in order to lower the Point of Impact, to do this turn the elevation screw clockwise. Yeah, that mistake is a forehead slapper worthy of a big DOH, don't feel bad about it, we all have these moments.

Difficulty opening the cylinder. This could be as simple as a loose extractor to as problematic as a bent extractor rod.

To test if the extractor rod is tight, first put a fired casing in every other chamber, then hold the cylinder firmly in one hand while turning the extractor rod by grasping the knurling tightly with your fingers. Note, this is a "left hand" thread, which means that it's opposite the normal thread direction, so lefty is tighty and rightly is loosy. If you can't move it in either direction with your bare hands, it can be assumed that it's tight enough. If you can move it with your bare hands, use a thinish leather belt folded over the knurling and grasp that with a pair of pliers, then turn it until it's snug but don't go nuts about tightening it, if you try "reefing" on it you can strip it or break it. Best advice for limiting how much torque you apply is to use a medium firm "handshake" grip on the cylinder and stop torquing the ejector rod when the cylinder starts to slip in your hand. BTW, using the fired casings in every other chamber is IMPORTANT, this will protect the extractor star and the keyhole in the cylinder, so don't skip this step. If you don't have any fired casings, wait until your next range trip and save some to use.

Bent extractor rod. Put the cylinder in the crane and give it a good spin. If you can see the extrator tip wobbling around at all, it's bent and will need to be replaced. This commonly happens with some knucklehead has spent too much time watching movie shooters and developed a habit of flipping the cylinder open and closed. However, it could also have been bent by someone pounding on the extractor to eject a load of spent casings. If your extractor rod is bent, you can find the parts needed at Brownell's and it won't cost too much money, probably 15 or 20 bucks. However I haven't actually looked at these particular prices, just noticed they carried them when shopping for other parts.

BTW, if you do have to replace the extractor rod, getting the thread started when assembling the cylinder is a distinct matter of "FEEL". The thread used has a VERY fine pitch and it is extremely easy to crossthread it. If at any point you feel it binding within the first turn or turn and a half, you have it cross threaded. Stop immediately and unscrew it while pushing in against the spring tension. After perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 turn you will "feel" a very light "click" as the thread drops in and it should then spin in quite easily. It too me a fair bit of time to develop a feel for doing this, so don't be at all surprized if you spend a half hour or more fiddling with it the first time you have to do it. Just remember, you can't force these threads, you have to feel it in. When the threads are properly engaged, the extractor rod will spin in with a light twirl between thumb and forefinger.

As for the crud that has built up on the crane, you can scrape it off with a small screwdriver, a dental pic, or even a pocket knife if your careful. Just take it slow and work it down layer by layer and when you get down to steel, use a very light touch to avoid scratching the finish on the crane. BTW, you can also use a brass brush for that final cleanup.

Once you have the face of the cylinder clean (I use Lead Away cleaning cloths for this) and the rear of the barrel, take a set of feeler gages and check the gap between the barrel and cylinder. If it's more than 0.012 inch, S&W will correct it under warranty. If it's less than 0.012 inch, you'll have to pay to have it corrected or just put up with the extra cleaning that it will require. BTW, I have found that the 22LR is a rather "dirty" shooting ammo in a revolver, most likely because it's really a rifle caliber and there is a lot of unspent powder present when the bullet leaves the barrel. That's a result of using a caliber that was optimized for a 16 to 18 inch barrel in a much shorter barrel. My 617 has a 0.008 inch B/C gap and it takes more time to clean than any other revolver I own. Fortunately, I find cleaning revolvers to be relaxing, so it really doesn't bother me a bit. However, consider this a heads up that what your seeing may be totally normal for a gun that wasn't well take care of.

Finally, my experience with the 617 is that the ammo is dirty enough that extraction will get sticky after about 100 rounds downrange. When that happens, a few quick strokes with a cleaning brush through each chamber will remove enough crud to get you shooting again without having to pound the rounds out of the chamber. BTW, my 617 is a 6 shooter, for a 10 shooter you may have to brush out the cylinder every 50 or 60 rounds because more casings means more drag. I'll also point out that pounding the casings out of the cylinder is an excellent way to bend the extractor rod, so if you have a sticky cylinder, punch each casing out one at a time with a 3/16 diameter dowel rod or screwdriver. Yeah, it's a PITA, but is a lot better for the gun. It's also why a cleaning brush for the 22LR wheelguns is an essential part of the range kit.

BTW, I've also found that a spotting scope is another essential, these guns are accurate enough that you'll end up shooting at ranges where you need a spotting scope to see your hits. Note, I'm shooting about 2 inches at 100 feet from a benchrest with cheap Winchester Xpert from Walmart. As much as I would like to blame the ammo, to be honest I think that it's mostly me, because I am seeing more horzontal spread to my groups than vertical. So, to me it seems that I need to keep working on my trigger control. To be honest, I am starting to think that I'll never measure up to a true Bullseye shooter but it's fun to keep trying and doesn't cost much. Yeah, I know, the Bulleye shooters do it with one hand and unsupported, someday I'll get to this stage, however right now I am working on the basics. Also need to start lifting again, the 617 tends to get heavy after a bit and I need to work on reversing some age related loss in muscle tone.

 

[AceBruceGary]

Thanks for the advice guys.
I called S&W today. I think I may send it in.

You're right about that crud. It looked like metal but I was able to scrape it off. Someone mentioned to me that it (excess crud) may be an indication that it is not timed correctly.

As far as having the sight maxed out. It is maxed out downwards not upwards.

I'm going to test the extractor rod now. It does have some play in it because I can rotate it slightly while it is seated in the recessed portion of the cylinder.

 

[AceBruceGary]

The rod seemed to be on pretty tight.
The ejector may be bent. If it is it is very slight. Maybe not at all though.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

You need to get a bronze tooth brush and scrub all that bullet material from the yoke, around the forcing cone / under the top strap.
You also need a bronze bore brush and scrub all the chambers clean.

The damage from the firing pin is repairable with a file. With care, remove the dent from the inside of the chambers. This is causing some of your problem in extracting. If the dent is lifting up on the cartridges (from seating), remove the burr using a stone or dremel. Be very careful not to rub anything your not suppose to. Just remove the high spots.

To check the firing pin, open the cylinder, hold the cylinder release to the rear and dryfire the gun. Hold the trigger fully rearward. Now look at the firing pin, it should be flat all the way across. If the bottom corner is radiused or chipped then you need another one. The firing pin is easily changed if need be.

Once the gun is clean and lightly oiled, with all the springs installed, then see how the extractor is.

You check run out by spinning the cylinder in your hands while the yoke is opened. If there is excessive wobble to the rod, then that is easily straightened when removed from the gun. (if you try and straighten it in the gun, you will bend the yoke).

No biggie, you don't need to send it back. It's not really damaged......yet. S&W makes a tough gun which will take a lot of abuse.

 

[AceBruceGary]

Ok here are some more pics

The firing pin:

Interesting: I can't seem to find the edges to the firing pin peening. Pics taken from the charging hole side and the business end:

 

[AceBruceGary]

How would I check for timing issues?

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

The gun is very dirty, use bronze brushes.

Firing pin is Ok.
Extractor rod needs to be straightened. However, re-check it in the assembled gun & spin cylinder to verify it needs to be straightened. Sometimes it counter wobbles while assembled appearing straight.

Timing is the process of the cylinder unlocking, rotating to the next chamber and re-locking.

To check basic carry up:


I keep my fingers off the cylinder (it's either right or not). On a rimfire, find some fired cases and load them in the chambers. Then you slowly cock the gun in single action and see if the cylinder stop snaps into each and every cylinder cut-out. If not, continue to pull the trigger and see if it locks up. Hold the trigger fully to the rear and test it again. If the stop doesn't engage the cut out while holding the trigger fully to the rear, the carry up is off. Field repair is to replace the hand.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Interesting: I can't seem to find the edges to the firing pin peening. Pics taken from the charging hole side and the business end:

That's because the firing pin is hardened. Hardened stuff chips or snaps away. Only soft materials deform (dent/peen).

 

[AceBruceGary]

The gun is very dirty, use bronze brushes.

Firing pin is Ok.
Extractor rod needs to be straightened. However, re-check it in the assembled gun & spin cylinder to verify it needs to be straightened. Sometimes it counter wobbles while assembled appearing straight.

Timing is the process of the cylinder unlocking, rotating to the next chamber and re-locking.

To check basic carry up:


I keep my fingers off the cylinder (it's either right or not). On a rimfire, find some fired cases and load them in the chambers. Then you slowly cock the gun in single action and see if the cylinder stop snaps into each and every cylinder cut-out. If not, continue to pull the trigger and see if it locks up. Hold the trigger fully to the rear and test it again. If the stop doesn't engage the cut out while holding the trigger fully to the rear, the carry up is off. Field repair is to replace the hand.

The cylinder definitely locks up. Out of curiosity if you need to replace the hand, would that require any gunsmithing or is it a direct drop in? I see an oversized hand and a regular one on midway.

As far as the peening goes, I wasn't clear in describing the peening. I don't see the peening creeping into the charge holes. I see that they are smooth. I don't think I could file anything down.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

As long as the catridges don't rub the dents on the chamber walls or are sticking up above the surface then all is well.

This is a copy and paste to fix carry up/replace the hand:

Hand fitting does violate "file the cheapest part" rule. Before a wider hand will do any good, it must catch the ratchets closer to the center of the cylinder. This means you must file the hand's window only on the left side and only enough to allow the hand to move freely in the window. If you take metal off of the right side of the window or from the hand itself, you won't accomplish a thing, in fact you might make timing worse. In other words, you have to move the hand's point of contact to the left.
Installing a wide hand compensates for wear on the ratchets outer edge. The idea is to force the cylinder to turn a little farther and get a good lock-up. If the left tip of the hand is worn, it will not rotate the cylinder far enough. In this case, you can install a standard width hand to restore timing.
Hands are made of some hard stuff. It is a good idea to use some 400 grit sandpaper to break the sharp front edges of the hand so it won't bite into the window.
DCU or timing

DCU (doesn't carry up) or basic timing is easy to check.

How I check basic timing is pretty easy to do. Without touching the cylinder or holding back the cylinder just gently cock the hammer slowly in single action, (on all stations) and see if the cylinder stop snaps in place before the hammer falls. When the trigger is pulled to the rear (MIM triggers will rotate the cylinder further when the trigger is pulled) and the cylinder stop didn't snap into the cylinder notch, then you have a problem.



One thing I must insist, before swapping the parts make sure it's not a loose fitting ejector causing your dry fire and poor carry up problems. This is true with non-pinned cylinders. Drop empty cases into the chambers then check your carry up. Sometimes the gun is fixed when cases are inserted in the chambers.



As the extractor ratchets, hand, and hand window wear, they get to a point where the hand won't rotate the cylinder far enough to allow the cylinder stop to snap in before the hammer drops (carry up condition in DA mode). This is not a hand length issue, it’s a hand width problem. If you take the side plate off and watch carefully in the hand window while pulling the trigger, you will see the hand cams off of the ratchets and the left side of the hand tip positions against the right section of the ratchets to rotate the cylinder those last few degrees.

Unless a gun has been fired a zillion times, the hand and the window seldom show wear, except for the left tip of the hand. Most times when you see a hand loose in the window, it's because it was shipped that way.
Factory hands run from about .093 to .095" and wide hands run about .098 to .100" There shouldn’t be more than .001 side play between the hand and window.

If the hand has worn thinner, or the hand window has worn wider, or the edges of the ratchets have worn thinner, you will start loosing carry up. Without fail, the ratchets are the most usual cause.

There are several solutions. The absolute best one is to replace the extractor (ratchets). Unfortunately, that’s a factory fitted part and you can't buy one without sending the gun back to the factory.

The next best option is to fit a wider hand. This will have nearly the same effect as a new extractor because it will take up the slack from ratchet wear and make the cylinder rotate a few more degrees. When the wider hand is fitted, you must widen the left edge of the hand window so the hand will be positioned a few thousands to the left.

An undesirable option is to lay a fine bead of weld on the right edge of the hand window then dress some material from the left edge of the window. This will position the hand closer to the ratchet and make the cylinder rotate further. Welding that thin of metal is sure to do some damage to the finish and could ruin the frame.

You can bend the tip of the hand slightly to the left. This will also cause the cylinder to rotate a bit father. The hand is made of some very hard material and will fracture if you try to bend it without first softening it. You have to heat the tip of the hand until it is red hot then let it cool to room temperature. It will then be soft enough to bend without breaking. Once you get the hand tip bent, you must re-harden the hand. Herein lies the problem. Most of us don't have the proper metallurgy skills to re-harden the hand. If it is soft, it will soon wear out.

One of the very precision specs in an S&W revolver is the hand-to-ratchet clearance. A few thousandths makes the difference between good and bad carry up. You want the hand tip to be touching the ratchet but not binding on it when the trigger is pulled. Basically a zero clearance.

If you insert the tip of the hand into the window, it should move freely with minimal side play. The tighter the better, as long as it doesn't bind.

The left side of the window creates a reference point in respect to the ratchets. You must move the reference point to the left before the wide hand will make the cylinder rotate more. That means you must take metal off of the left side of the window. Use a "safe" window file for this. Taking metal off the hand or the right side of the window moves the reference point the wrong way.

Once your wide hand is installed, the tip of the hand may bind on some of the ratchets. This will cause a bad gag in DA trigger pull. With the side plate off, watch through the hand window as you cycle the gun in DA. You will see where the hand cams off of the ratchet and the point of contact between the hand tip and each ratchet. Dress the ratchets at the point of contact so the hand is touching but not binding.

Go slowly changing the hand. It's easy to do and will fix your timing (DCU) problems.

 

[bgrafsr]

Check with Brownell's for a .22 cylinder chamber swaging tool. It will swage the chambers without removing any metal from them. It is used for cylinder chambers that look like yours does.

 

[AceBruceGary]

Thanks guys. You've been a big help.

 

[AceBruceGary]

Update:
I ended up sending this into S&W.

1. Cylinder is re-usable. The technician cleaned up any of the peening that impeded the ejection of the spent cases.

The reason this happened: The previous owner put in a lighter main spring. As a result we assume he got light strikes. He then put in a longer than normal firing pin. Upon dry fire, this firing pin would peen the cylinder much more than in any other 617.

2. All springs are being replaced by S&W

3. The rear sight blade is higher than it should be and is being replaced by S&W.

4. The hammer was stoned to a point where SA was unsafe (I could get it to fall without pulling the trigger). The hammer is being replaced.

It was less expensive than I thought it would be.

 

[scooter123]

Well, that's very good news, especially the cost coming in lower than expected. More good news is that it will come back in nearly new condition, so you'll get a couple of lifetimes of use from it. Bad news is they can be addictive, I have to limit how much 22 caliber ammo I take on any range trip because I'm not sure I have enough self control to put it down.

 

[k22fan]

As usual, it turned out that letting the factory fix a problem gun was the best solution. It has been a while, but I don't remember any forum members considering the possibility of a too long firing pin. In my experience the longer firing pins are only put in moon clip loading competition revolvers as part of an action job. It will be good for both you and S&W to have corrected the safety issue. Neither of you needs the liability nor risk to the friends you let shoot your gun.

For what it's worth, two cents may be over pricing this, but .22s aren't all about volume firing. Caring about and looking to see where each shot goes is the best way to become a very accurate shooter.

Best of luck;

Gil

 

[fmb]

Extractor rod loose

ABC,

Glad to hear everything is going to work out with your 617. I have a 6 shot 6" 617 that I shoot regularily and had an issue at the range one day with the cylinder being hard to open. On of our more senior members took a look and spun the cyliner and showed me that it looked like the extrator rod may be bent, BUT he also showed me that it had actually backed itself (unthreaded) a bit. He threaded it back in (left hand thread) and all was great. The advice given here for you was a great help to me as well.

Cheers, Will

 

[Stainz]

I called S&W some months back re my 5" h-l 686+ having a bent ejector rod - they sent me the rod gratis - and it fit perfectly! Of course, the OP's problems were more than this - and that revolver deserved a proper visit to the factory. I am sure it will still be a bargain, after everything is tallied - you'll have a factory fresh+ revolver, to boot. Believe me, as I found out so late in my S&W revolver-life (9/08), there is nothing better than a 617 and some inexpensive ammo. Let us hear how you like it when you get it back. Be prepared for a more stout DA trigger, however.

About those 'extended' firing pins. The C&S one I bought - and tried briefly - actually is the very same pin - it just has a wider limiting notch, permitting it to flatten that teeny return pin spring - placing excessive wear on it - while allowing a tiny amount more forward movement of the firing pin. This could cause it to impact the cylinder in an empty chamber dry-fire. I find no need for such - if you must lessen the DA pull that much by lowering the hammer spring's force, a switch to Federal primers - and meticulous cleaning - especially of the area between the cylinder and ejector star - will insure no ftf's.

Enjoy that 617!

Stainz