Speed for 38special with Hornady 125gr XTP bullets

[rhodesengr]

Hi guys. I am about to make some 38special rounds for my 686 Competition. These would be intended for home defense. I chose Hornady 125gr XTP bullets and have Accurate #5 powder.

I am trying to decide what velocity to choose for rounds using Hornady 125 XTP bullets. To get some idea what speed to choose, I looked at a bunch of commercial ammo. That just got me confused because I see a big overlap in speeds for 38sp and 38sp +p

Hornady commercial ammo with that bullet is specified at 900 fps and they call it 38 special. Other brands labeled 38special are closer to 950fps.

When I look up commercial ammo with 125gr JHP bullets labeled as 38special +P, I see speed from 945 to 1200fps.

The load data for #5 with 125gr XTP shows the velocity range for 38spl from 981 to 1080 and +p from 1080 to 1180.

The commercial products have 38spl and +p both around 950fps. The #5 reloading data shows +P at 1080fps or more. I don't understand that. I guess the +P designation is more about pressure and not velocity but I think the average guy buying ammo off the shelf would think +p is a "hotter" load. In most cases, it must just be a faster powder leading to a +p pressure but no greater speed.

This doesn't help me pick a design speed for my XTP bullets. The Hornady product info doesn't say anything about suggested velocity although they do have a video showing a gel test at 900fps. The lowest speed shown for that bullet using #5 powder is 980fps which is hotter than most commercial ammo whether its called +p or not. Confusing!

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

Hornady has a chart designating acceptable velocities for use.
The Xtp acceptable velocities are anywhere between 800-1600 fps.
I can find it in my Hornady reloading manual.
Its everywhere on the internet as well.
Just google “Xtp velocity chart”

 

[.455_Hunter]

Why not just get a box of factory defensive 125 gr .38 Special and then tailor your handloads to match velocity for practice?

 

[Greyman50]

Do you have a cronograph?

 

[TXBryan]

May I assume you have a chronograph? If so simply use it for load development until you get those Hornady 125's moving at around 1000 fps near the muzzle. Begin with book values for your powder and see what your revolver delivers.

If you do not have a chronograph get one. They are cheap with reliable models starting at around $100 and they are easy to use. Pick up a cheap camera tripod for mounting.

At the risk of preaching to the choir; hand-loading without a chronograph involves guesswork concerning performance and there's simply no need for that. Velocity is your best indicator of approaching the pressure maximums with which you may be uncomfortable. No, it doesn't measure pressure, directly, but is generally your best available method to stay away from excessive pressure - all based on the velocities you're recording versus book data.

One can get some sense of excessive pressure from other indicators such as flattened or punctured primers, or hard extractions, but by the time these may be experienced your past where your chronograph would've likely indicated the need for backing off - or simply no need to go "further."

You should easily be able to achieve 1000 fps with 125 grain projectiles and #5 without excessive pressure.

 

[rhodesengr]

Hornady has a chart designating acceptable velocities for use.
The Xtp acceptable velocities are anywhere between 800-1600 fps.
I can find it in my Hornady reloading manual.
Its everywhere on the internet as well.
Just google “Xtp velocity chart”

Turns out the speed range is written on the box which says 700 to 1500. But, the test data on Lucky Gunner shows these bullets barely expand at all with a measured speed of 892fps. The Hornady website has a video which seem to show good spreading at 900fs. Seems doubtful that 8fps would make that much difference.

 

[rhodesengr]

Why not just get a box of factory defensive 125 gr .38 Special and then tailor your handloads to match velocity for practice?

So that is where I ran into the confusion about 38spl vs 38spl +p. A lot of the commercial +p ammo isn't any faster than the regular 38sp.

My idea was to look up commercial rounds using 125gr JHP bullets and see what speeds the were designed for. It is still unclear how much speed the Hornady bullets need to get good spreading. If they don't spread, I might as well use my cheap 158gr LRN bullets.

I think I will get a chrono but that still doesn't tell me how much speed I need to get good spreading. Results on Lucky Gunner with that bullet at higher 357mag speeds does show good spreading. At just below 900fps, they don't spread much at all.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Since you will be shooting a 686......

I would make sure that copper XTP is going fast enough to expand.

Nothing worse than a JHP that does not open up and acts like a fmj.

A +P load is needed with that bullet's design.

Put a few into six lined up water jugs , to make sure that they perform correctly.

 

[rockquarry]

So that is where I ran into the confusion about 38spl vs 38spl +p. A lot of the commercial +p ammo isn't any faster than the regular 38sp.

My idea was to look up commercial rounds using 125gr JHP bullets and see what speeds the were designed for. It is still unclear how much speed the Hornady bullets need to get good spreading. If they don't spread, I might as well use my cheap 158gr LRN bullets.

I think I will get a chrono but that still doesn't tell me how much speed I need to get good spreading. Results on Lucky Gunner with that bullet at higher 357mag speeds does show good spreading. At just below 900fps, they don't spread much at all.

I don't know what Lucky Gunner is, but nothing will take the place of experimenting on your own. You might find it not only enlightening but enjoyable and you'll have your answer.

 

[TXBryan]

Your Hornady XTP 125 grain bullets will generally expand as advertised at 1000 fps given "normal" defensive distances. Clothing and anything else encountered can make a difference.

Get 'em moving at 1000 fps, something not difficult to achieve with #5 while avoiding excessive pressure, and you're making about the best effort you can.

By the way; don't believe the velocity info published on boxes of ammo. They didn't use your revolver. Your new chronograph will dramatically demonstrate how optimistic lots of "advertised" velocities printed on boxes of ammo truly are.

 

[rhodesengr]

I don't know what Lucky Gunner is, but nothing will take the place of experimenting on your own. You might find it not only enlightening but enjoyable and you'll have your answer.

Its just a website that sells ammo but the guy makes a lot of videos I have found useful and does a lot of testing. This link is where he tested a bunch of 38speical and 357 Magnum commercial ammo firing into gel blocks.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

I would love to do my own experimenting. I will probably get a chrono but I don't know if my gun club will let me put jugs of water out on the range. I don't have private land where I just go shoot stuff, unfortunately.

 

[jjfitch]

38SPL POA/POI

Pretty sure ammunition manufacturers for 38 Spl. Ammo will specify ammo and bullet weight/velocity to have POA/POI that will match the zillions of revolvers that DO NOT have adjustable sights.

So, if 38 Special has a specific velocity it will probably have acceptable "precision" at 15 yards. But it also should provide acceptable expansion as well.

When test firing dozens of armory S&W M10 revolvers around 20 years ago using all the variations of ammo we had from Winchester every gun/ammo combination was +/- 1 inch at 15 yards.

I'm would hope Horandy would use the same rule of thumb.

Smiles,

 

[Alk8944]

Since your gun is a .357 Magnum, why not just buy a box of just about anyone's factory 125 Gr. JHP ammunition and call it good. Save the handlloading for shooting paper with cast bullets and save a bunch of money!

 

[rhodesengr]

Since your gun is a .357 Magnum, why not just buy a box of just about anyone's factory 125 Gr. JHP ammunition and call it good. Save the handlloading for shooting paper with cast bullets and save a bunch of money!

If only it was that easy. There is no 357 Mag ammo that I have seen in my area. Big 5, Sportsmen Warehouse, and a Bass Pro... none of them have any. I see some online for about $1.40 and up a round plus shipping and FFL fees.... I can make it for much less.

I have everything I need except the load data says to use SPM primers and those I don't have. Some threads say regular SP primer will work.

 

[Fide686]

Revolver velocities will vary + or - 100 FPS. Without a chrono you will never know. My 4” is slower than both of my 2 1/2” guns with one load.
Have a good Easter.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

The American Gunner ammo from Hornady in this exact caliber and bullet is rated at 900 fps...

Accurate #5 will very easily get you to 1,000 fps: Hodgdon's +P START LOAD of 6.8 gr is 1,074 out of a 7" (and WHY a 7" I'll never know?) barrel.

Load up some starting at 6.0 in +0.2 gr increments and see just how you like them? In your 686 they should be pretty mild & manegable...

Cheers!

P.S. For comparison purposes their Critical Defense with the 125gr FTX bullet is rated at 1,500 fps in 357 Magnum: these would be appropriate for a 686 as well.

 

[rhodesengr]

The American Gunner ammo from Hornady in this exact caliber and bullet is rated at 900 fps...

Yes, I mentioned this in my opening post. What got me concerned about mimicking that load was the testing shown here
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

The 125gr XTP bullet didn't open very well at 892fps. Based on the inputs here and a couple of other palces, I am going to load them in the 357 brass even though I don't have SPM primers.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

There's a significant difference as far as anticipated hollowpoint bullet expansion between 892 and 1k fps.

Why would you need (or even consider using?) Small Pistol Magnum primers if you are not using a powder nor a load that requires them? You'll need to use more powder in the longer 357 Magnum cases to develop the same velocities, BTW.

Cheers!

P.S. Another question might be why you would consider an (as in "one") internet test video as somehow being more definitive of performance than Hornady's engineers & designers? Test media is just that: test media.

 

[Forrest r]

. I am going to load them in the 357 brass even though I don't have SPM primers.

Why do you need SPM primers for AA#5/125gr bullets in 357mag cases???

 

[rhodesengr]

Why do you need SPM primers for AA#5/125gr bullets in 357mag cases???

The data I have specifies SPM primers. I think I have mentioned this a few times. I understand some people are saying SP primer work fine but nevertheless, the Western Powder V8 load data to AA#5 357 mag is based on mag primers. Here is a screen shot. The setup is at the top and the data for the 125gr XTP is the last line. It says primer Win WSPM.