Speed for 38special with Hornady 125gr XTP bullets

[STORMINORMAN]

Make sure you hit 'em 1st: shot placement is REALLY what it's all about!

Cheers!

P.S. The Hornady load data for that load out of a 4" barrel is not even in what THEY consider to be in the +P range: they show somewhere between 850 and 900 fps, with 7.6 gr at 950 fps and +P designation.

Western Powders load data shows, as you stated, 7.1 gr being mid- +P, between 6.8 gr @ 1,074 and 7.5gr @ 1,184. But, this out of a 7.7" barrel: almost twice as long.

Who ya' gonna' believe? I've loaded many hundreds of 125gr plated FP bullets at loads between 6.4 and 7.4 gr of #5 and they all went BANG! and slaughtered the targets (paper, NRA) with nary a hitch.

Hornady doesn't show #5 in their 357 Magnum data: Western starts off with 9.6 gr @ 1,273 fps. Those will most certainly expand. Factory American Gunner 125gr XTPs in 357 Magnum show the same 1,500 fps I previously mentioned in their Critical Defense line. Want to bet they used the same powder?

Personally I would not hesitate to add a bit more to the +P load OR load less than the START load in 357 Magnum cases: it's all up to how much MORE BANG! you feel you need to make you happy for your proposed HD application.

P.,P.,S. Happily, your L-frame will handle them with no sweat. And, if you REALLY want to go higher, the HODGDONS websight shows a 21.5 gr load of WIN 296 with this bullet @ OVER 1,900 fps!

 

[mikerjf]

I wanna add another view, since it hasn't come up.

While one shouldn't believe everything one reads on the innernet, there are some loads repeatedly mentioned as being effective by those with "street cred". (LEO's, long-time reloading bloggers, county medical examiners, etc.)

Your 125g JHP is one of those mentioned... in a 357, going about 1400 fps.

38 Special? You are usually going to hear about the FBI load, a 158g soft lead hollow-point going what, 900ish? The soft lead helps expansion at the low velocity.

I think what I'm saying is that, given you have a 357 revolver, trying to make the 125g JHP into a 38 Special load is not what a lot of guys with street experience would suggest.

 

[rhodesengr]

I think what I'm saying is that, given you have a 357 revolver, trying to make the 125g JHP into a 38 Special load is not what a lot of guys with street experience would suggest.

I think, based on everything posted here, I had pretty much come to the same conclusion. I was going to build 357's over the weekend except for two things: I thought I needed SPM primers and then it turned out what I thought was 357 mag was actually 357Max. Once I get some 357 brass i can build some 357's. Turns out I found some CCI SOM primers and I have Federal WP primers. I can try some loads with both primers and by that time I will have my Chrono. I still won't know anything about expansion.

BTW, earlier today I emailed Hornady and asked them if them had more "terminal ballistics data" for the 125XTP bullet, specially spreading vs speed. They actually replied within a few hours and here is what they said:

"Thank you for your email. The XTP's you are going to be using the those cartridges will open up at a velocity under the 900fps. That typically is the minimum recommended muzzle velocity."

So despite a lot of discussion here to the contrary, Hornady is still claiming 900fps.

Is a 158gr soft lead HP bullet a product I can buy? Any suggestions?

 

[mikerjf]

The Buffalo Bore FBI load is well-liked, and the bullet they use is available from Rim Rock. That would be a good place to start, particularly since Buffalo Bore advertises "real world" velocities from various firearms.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

"I'm in pure disgrace at the reloading place...
'Cause my XTPs won't expand!"

(With apologies to Charlie Drake, Sir George Martin and the entire Aboriginal race!)

(But none to the UK's ABC Radio nor the BBC for banning and requiring a lyrics change to be extra squeaky pc!)

 

[Nevada Ed]

Do you have the link for that?
I did some more searching and found this
https://press.hornady.com/assets/pcthumbs/tmp/1410998060-2022-Standard-Ballistics-Chart.pdf

It doesn't mention expansion at all. On the last page, it has information I already knew: that the 38spl American Gunner cartridge with the 125gr XTP bullet has a muzzle velocity of 900fps with a 4" barrel. That is consistent with the video I already mentioned that is on the Hornady website showing that bullet entering ballistic gel at 900fps.

The problem is that I have any number of posts here and elsewhere telling me I need more velocity. Nevada Ed posted that one needs 960fps to get 98% expansion. I asked where that number came from which is a fair question. Also, like it or not there are the tests posted on Luckygunner showing poor expansion performance at 892fps (measured entrance speed).

All of which brings me back to my original question. How much speed to I need and what is the source of the data.

I see now that Hornady has a reloading app and a book. I'd buy those things if I knew for sure they contained expansion vs velocity data (in ballistic gel).

Note;
I needed 960fps in my 1.88" J frame snub nose.........

if you have a 4" revolver , it might be tight enough to get 930-950fps, which will work.
I did not see what length your barrel was in the first link.

Hornady ammo is loaded on the light side, so it can be improved
if one thinks it needs it?
However a company should sell SD ammo that will do the job correctly, one would think.
Their bullets are KNOWN for their deep penetration, which some think
is more important than expansion.

Sorry to muddy the water, with my test.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone... If only my vision underwater was better!

Thought your posts were very inciteful, Ed!

Doubtful there will ever be that perfect bullet, perfect load, perfect result...? We can only try and try again, huh?

Cheers!

 

[rhodesengr]

Sorry to muddy the water, with my test.

I don't think you muddied the water at all. You actually answered my question. I was just curious where your number came from. If is was from your own testing, that's great.

My gun for this is a 686 Competitor which has a 6" barrel.

 

[rhodesengr]

bit of an update:
I now have a Chrono and will hopefully be testing it out tomrrow with a few loads. I now have 357mag brass and made some low-side 357's with Hornady 125XTP bullets to try (9.7gr of AA#5.)

I also now have those Rim Rock 158gr bullets for the FBI load. They are gas checked but not jacketed.

Here is my question. Since I will be using all this in a 686 Competitor, how would those Rim Rock bullets work out loaded with 357 brass rather than 38spl? A very experienced guy at my club (active LEO) says he loads 357 brass with 38spl levels of powder. Maybe I can find the charge that would give about 1000fps using 357 brass (mimicking the Buffalo Bore load) and it would be better for the gun than running 38spl brass?

 

[Nevada Ed]

"Thank you for your email. The XTP's you are going to be using the those cartridges will open up at a velocity under the 900fps. That typically is the minimum recommended muzzle velocity."

They will open up........
but by how much ?

to .40 dia, to .50 dia. , to match some other SD bullets at .71 dia. ??

Just remember this...........
even a bullet can have a bad day, in performance.........
be it a low fps of a load or even a bad lot, that went through the factory.

Way back when the Speer Gold dot bullet first came out, there was a test
where the bullets fails.
The company sent out new bullets to be tested and they worked.

Sixty years later, I feel a lot better with the SD bullets being produced
but there is always a chance that, that 1% will raise it's ugly head.

 

[mikerjf]

Building a 1000fps FBI load in 357 brass is a great idea. Should be effective and easy to handle in your gun.

Then you can make some screamers with your 125 JHP's. Lots of powders can get you there in a 6" gun.

 

[Rogeronimo]

My take: Published data is only foundational. It's intent is to safely get a bullet out of the barrel. Their numbers are their numbers, not yours.
Terminal ballistics are a different subject. Set the load data aside for now. Some manufacturers provide velocity parameters as a guide, not a hard and fast rule. Shoot water jugs if that's your interest, gelatin if you'd prefer. Heck, put some of Paul Harrell's meat targets together for organic tissue results. Dress them for a variety of events. Point is, satisfy your 'need to know' on your terms.
Now, back to the load data. Allow this information to help you achieve a velocity that will deliver the results you want in the target of your choice.
Your 6" revolver should be very accommodating. Peace.

 

[rhodesengr]

Damn, that was so much fun. I ran my Prochrono DLX for the first time today and tested a number of loads I had. The range is outdoors but the firing area is covered so I used the indoor light accessory.

First I shot 22LR in my 617. 990fps average, sigma 76fps

Then I shot some light load 38spl with 158gr LRN, 5.2gr of AA#5 825fps sigma 6fps.

Next I shot some factory 38spl FMJ. I have no idea what they are. 970 sigma 21fps

Then I got to the good stuff that I made.

38spl with 125gr xtp and 7.4gr AA#5: 1044fps sigma 9fps
That is near the high end of the 38+p range for AA#5. They were a quite a bit slower than the speeds shown in the Western Powder v8 where 6.8gr is supposed to produce 1074fps. As pointed out, my barrel is 6" and the test barrel was 7.75"

357mag with 125 gr xtp and 9.7gr AA#5: I got 1170fps sigma 39fps
Data shows 9.6grains giving 1273fps with a 6" barrel. So not sure why mine were so much slower as boith the test barrel and mine were 6 inches.

Now that I have tons of 357mag brass, I think I will mostly just make stuff with that. So much fun to shoot. I am still grinning

Thanks or all the discussion here. It was really helpful. Its really satisfying to work on these load designs and then see what they actually do.