Split Some .38 Special Cases

[kbm6893]

New to reloading and have loaded up around 300 rounds. I'm using 3.2 grains of Red Dot under a 158 grain LSWC. As most of you know and I found out on my own, Red Dot doesn't meter the best so I set the scale (used a digital for the first 100 and a beam for the second 200) at 3.2 grains. The Alliant recipe calls for a max charge of 3.4 grains for standard .38, and 3.8 for +p. So if the throw was a bit light, I was at 3.0 or 3.1, or if it was heavy, I was around 3.4. The rounds are being fired through 2 .357 revolvers, a S&W 65-4, and a Ruger Service 6.

Fired 200 rounds so far. I batch load, so when I am done, I de-prime and re-size the brass, then expand it, then clean so when I want to reload them again, I prime, throw powder, seat and crimp. While I was doing that today, I came across 3 pieces of brass that were split. They are the first 3 in the picture. I checked all my loaded rounds and found none, but a check of the brass already cleaned, expanded and primed turned up one more. That's the fourth one on the right.

From left to right, the markings on the cases are:
C 6 7 7,
W C +P+
W W 38 Special
R-P 38 SPL (that's the primed one)



Now, I only started saving brass about 3-4 years ago. I don't shoot much so I had about 800 cases. Most of it was factory ammo, but I do recall buying a few boxes of the UltraMax bulk pack that Dicks sells. I also bought 150 rounds of reloads from a gun store last year. It was labeled TruVelocity, .45 ACP, but a sticker was placed over the box and labeled .38 Special. I'm betting those were the problem cases. The first 2 are definetely reloads since I never heard of C 6 77, I never bought +P+ ammo Who knows how many times they have been reloaded?

So what do I do? I don't believe it was my reloading that did it. I was within the range of the recipe and I sure know I never double charged.

Advice please

 

[robertrwalsh]

Since those are neck splits I am inclined to think you had some very well used, old cases. I am a tad concerned though that you split so many in one batch.

 

[arjay]

If you know which cases the reloads came in you could set them aside otherwise just toss them when they split.

 

[kbm6893]

Since those are neck splits I am inclined to think you had some very well used, old cases. I am a tad concerned though that you split so many in one batch.

It's 4 out of 800 (so far). Is that a high number? I bet it was that TruVelocity ****. I got them when there was nothing else to buy after Newtown. Of course I'm gonna toss them, but if others split along the way, is there a danger to the gun or to me if they split?

I have about 500 rounds of factory ammo sitting around. I was gonna let them stay in the safe and just shoot my reloads, but maybe I'll shoot them so I have a supply of newer brass. I am gonna go through my cases and toss anything I KNOW to be reloads, like the +P+ and C 6 77.

 

[backer]

I shoot a very mild load of 231 under a hollow base wad cutter. I have several hundred cases and reload and shoot them until they split. As long as the loads are mild I don't think its a big deal. If I'm loading hotter loads I'm much more careful in segregating brass and discarding it long before it starts splitting.
Bob

 

[Maximumbob54]

Brass work hardens from being sized. Then if you shoot a gun with a fat chamber that stretches the case out that much more for sizing to squeeze back down. I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[4barrel]

New to reloading and have loaded up around 300 rounds. I'm using 3.2 grains of Red Dot under a 158 grain LSWC. As most of you know and I found out on my own, Red Dot doesn't meter the best so I set the scale (used a digital for the first 100 and a beam for the second 200) at 3.2 grains. The Alliant recipe calls for a max charge of 3.4 grains for standard .38, and 3.8 for +p. So if the throw was a bit light, I was at 3.0 or 3.1, or if it was heavy, I was around 3.4. The rounds are being fired through 2 .357 revolvers, a S&W 65-4, and a Ruger Service 6.

Fired 200 rounds so far. I batch load, so when I am done, I de-prime and re-size the brass, then expand it, then clean so when I want to reload them again, I prime, throw powder, seat and crimp. While I was doing that today, I came across 3 pieces of brass that were split. They are the first 3 in the picture. I checked all my loaded rounds and found none, but a check of the brass already cleaned, expanded and primed turned up one more. That's the fourth one on the right.

From left to right, the markings on the cases are: u can tell a split case when reloading as the handle will b easier to pull. Take a hand full of brass & shake it. u can hear a cracked case as it makes a different sound.
C 6 7 7,
W C +P+
W W 38 Special
R-P 38 SPL (that's the primed one)



Now, I only started saving brass about 3-4 years ago. I don't shoot much so I had about 800 cases. Most of it was factory ammo, but I do recall buying a few boxes of the UltraMax bulk pack that Dicks sells. I also bought 150 rounds of reloads from a gun store last year. It was labeled TruVelocity, .45 ACP, but a sticker was placed over the box and labeled .38 Special. I'm betting those were the problem cases. The first 2 are definetely reloads since I never heard of C 6 77, I never bought +P+ ammo Who knows how many times they have been reloaded?

So what do I do? I don't believe it was my reloading that did it. I was within the range of the recipe and I sure know I never double charged.

Advice please

U need to clean first. loose chamber? 38s last 30+ firings.

 

[italiansport]

I shoot a very mild load of 231 under a hollow base wad cutter. I have several hundred cases and reload and shoot them until they split. As long as the loads are mild I don't think its a big deal. If I'm loading hotter loads I'm much more careful in segregating brass and discarding it long before it starts splitting.
Bob

ditto!
Jim

 

[kbm6893]

Brass work hardens from being sized. Then if you shoot a gun with a fat chamber that stretches the case out that much more for sizing to squeeze back down. I wouldn't sweat it.

Thanks. I just hear people say that you can road 38 practically forever. I'm sure it was those truvelocity rounds. So no danger to me or gun?

 

[kbm6893]

U need to clean first. loose chamber? 38s last 30+ firings.

Clean before resizing? I figured better to deprime before cleaning so the primer pocket is empty The rounds that split were deprimed and resized. Then cleaned.

 

[4barrel]

Clean before resizing? I figured better to deprime before cleaning so the primer pocket is empty The rounds that split were deprimed and resized. Then cleaned.

That will probably solve your problem. You are killing your resizing die. Military brass in 38s are harder to seat a primer I have never cleaned a 38 primer pocket in 30 years of reloading & 200-400 rounds a week. I had the pleasure of getting to learn from some old bullseye shooters. These people did not read your complete post of your problem. A good liquid car wax will clean good as the hi dollar stuff. CLEAN IT FIRST. Let us know.

 

[Engineer1911]

Brass cases are consumable / disposable just like primers and powder. Only difference is you get 5 to 20 reloads from a brass case, and 1 reload from primers or powder. Just pick up some more range brass. Split necks on rimmed revolver cases do not hurt anything. The cracked neck just means there are no more 10 pointers left in the case.

 

[kbm6893]

That will probably solve your problem. You are killing your resizing die. Military brass in 38s are harder to seat a primer

So you're saying that by resizing a dirty case that I am killing it? And that I should clean first with the expended primer still in?

And which of the brass is military? The one with 77 on it? Reminds me of surplus garand ammo I have for my M1

Right now in my waiting to clean bin there are 200 deprimed/ resized and expanded cases. I was gonna go through all of what is loaded or ready load and then deprime and expand them before dumping them in that bucket. So now I would have about 700 deprimed and expanded cases. Then wash them all at once. This way I know how many times I reload them.

So I should switch to clean while still having expended primer in, then resize, expand, prime, throw powder, seat, and crimp?

 

[varmint243]

clean before resizing or you may scratch your sizing die
if you wish to deprime before cleaning, use a depriming die
those 38 cases have work hardened and become brittle
that happens after a whole lot of reloading

 

[RobsTV]

I always use a universal depriming die, then clean.

But, have had several "quality" Starline 38spl "nickel" cases split after only 5 to 7 reloads (Mihec 128gr HP, w231/hp38 840fps). Stopped using nickel. Just saying, even if you resize cleaned cases, it doesn't rule out splits.

 

[4barrel]

Trust me--
" Richard Nixon"
' --clean-punch the primer out & resize at the same time-- powder in - & seat & crimp. 3 or 4 stage. Don't worry about how many times on the brass. When they split chunk them. A split case is not going to blow your revolver up in a low pressure load like u are shooting. In a meet use fresher brass. Anything else is a waste of time & effort. I shoot with a lot of good shooters. If u sleep better at night pushing the primer out first-go for it. It is a step to take more time & no difference. Let us know & good loading.

 

[kbm6893]

Same for 9MM? Clean before resizing? I deprime and resize in one step.

 

[4barrel]

Same for 9MM? Clean before resizing? I deprime and resize in one step.

Clean all brass first. You guys should have some birdseye maple stocked black powder long guns hidden out somewhere. I will add this & am out. The better shooters in my 600+ gun club do it the way I do it. If you are going to win u need all the edge u can get. I am 70 & hard to beat. I own real bullseye guns shot in meets in the 60s. They still work.

 

[STCM(SW)]

A common thing with .38 spl brass even with only 2.8 gr of BE.
After so many fireings and resizeings they fail and split.

 

[Waywatcher]

Nonsense. Resize/depriming dirty brass is just fine. As long as your brass isn't covered in dirt or sand or something, it's fine to go straight into the resizer. In fact, hyper clean brass runs into its own set of problems when trying to resize it, it needs something there for lubrication.

My brass generally lands on concrete or on the bench (semi-auto/revolver respectively) and never gets dirty enough that it needs cleaning prior to the resizing die. Never scratched a die.

Cleaning primer pockets is a must if you're OCD, like me. Wet tumbling does it for me.

 

[growr]

No danger to you OR your gun to answer your question....seems like nickel plated casing are more subject to splitting than a brass case....
Sort of like tires...they eventually wear out....discard to the discard box...take them to the recycler's when the box is getting full.

Randy

 

[fredj338]

All straight wall cases eventually split, is what it is. You have no idea how many times reloaded brass has been reloaded, the split ones are just old. I do lose more nickel cases than brass. I suspect the nickel process makes the brass a little more brittle.

 

[kbm6893]

Nonsense. Resize/depriming dirty brass is just fine. As long as your brass isn't covered in dirt or sand or something, it's fine to go straight into the resizer. In fact, hyper clean brass runs into its own set of problems when trying to resize it, it needs something there for lubrication.

My brass generally lands on concrete or on the bench (semi-auto/revolver respectively) and never gets dirty enough that it needs cleaning prior to the resizing die. Never scratched a die.

Cleaning primer pockets is a must if you're OCD, like me. Wet tumbling does it for me.

I am OCD. And my revolver brass goes from the cylinder straight into a pocket on the range bag. never hits the dirt.

On another note, either the Red Dot or the LSWC makes the gun greasy and dirty! No big deal as it comes right off, but it was filthy after 100 rounds. Red Dot is what they had and it's working so I'll use it till it's gone. I got a bottle of Trail Boss that I'll try after the Red Dot is gone. Looking for Hp38 or Win231, but you know how it is nowadays.

 

[gwpercle]

They do that. firing expands, sizing squeezes them back down. The brass weakens ( take a metal wire coat hanger and put a bend in it, now bend it back and forth several times quickly...it breaks)
The hotter the load , closer to Maximum, the quicker the brass is going to fail. It don't last forever...that's the truth.
If you want it to last longer, load lighter. Don't need +P for targets and tin cans. I got brass for wadcutter target loads that is twenty years old, I've lost count of how many times it has been reloaded. When one splits I toss it , until then it gets reloaded. It doesn't hurt anything.
It's not the Red Dot powder that's causing it . It's the maximum charge of Red Dot that accelerates the cracking.
Gary

 

[fredj338]

It's not the Red Dot powder that's causing it . It's the maximum charge of Red Dot that accelerates the cracking.
Gary

Except his load is pretty mild, it's not the load but the brass.

 

[Rule3]

First, It's not you or anything YOU did. You got some oldcrapola brass mixed in with your good stuff. If you know what headstamp it is cull them out of there.

If you don't know, It doesn't matter, If the split they split, Toss them or recycle them. If you need 38 brass let me know.

second, there is really no need to clean primer pockets . I load pretty much every handgun caliber there is and never clean them (primer pockets) So just dump your dirty brass in the tumbler clean them and then deprime and resize.
With revolver brass you should not hurt your dies as they are not landing on the ground and dirt. But say some semi auto? It lands in the dirt and then if you deprime it there may be sand or other junk on it that gets in your dies.

Sure OCD, anal Match and Bench rest shooter clean primer pockets. Never seen any proof that it accomplishes anything. Big waste of time for no reward.

Don't believe me, Take 50 dirty brass, punch out the primer now use the little pocket tool over a piece of white paper. See how much comes out. You decide.

 

[4barrel]

Would some real target bullseye shooters old or young put their 2 cents in. People that win meets that roll their own? They are probably laughing tooooo hard to type. 38 or 45. RULE 3 which I like on most posts said in an old post he trims 38. What is that about in a wheel gun? He goes to that trouble & don't clean? I am in the dark on this one. Maybe he will explain to my dumb butt.

 

[kbm6893]

I dont tumble (yet). I use the Hornady Sonic Cleaner and the solution. Gets them really shiny. Spent enough on equipment to get started for now. If I bought a tumbler the wife would throw a fit (not really, but she wouldn't be happy). Tumbler is on my Christmas list though.

I'll just clean before I do anything. Not worried about primer pockets. Being new to reloading, I get freaked out a bit. I envisioned exploding cylinder and a trip to the ER! I know .38 splits eventually. Just surprised it happened so early, but the reloads I got at the gunstore looked old. Should never have bought them, but they were a good deal and .38 was nowhere to be found at the time. Even the box looked old. Not falling apart old, but the terminolgy on it. It read "Police Qualifier Ammunition". Wish I had a picture of it. It was either TruVelocity, or now that I think of it, SuperVelocity. Box was prinyed ".45 Auto", but had a stsicker that read .38 Special 110 grain HP. They were lead. Oh well. Live and learn. No more reloads other then mine!

As for the max charge, unless my scales were seriously off, I was MAYBE a hair at maximum for .38 special, but still well below +P. And since I was shooting them through .357, I figured what the hell. Incidentally, my new beam scale went back to Hornady. I had another thread on it. Adjustment nuts on end were spinning way past where they should have and it lost zero. I left the scale set to 3.2 grains and dropped the powder. If it was below the line, I knew it was light. Above the line I knew it was heavy. But I never let it get more than a hair above or below. If it was too much, I put the powder back in the hopper and threw another one. And I checked the scale with check weights before, during, and after the reloading session. There were a few today that were surely hotter. I felt and heard the report. Hope Trail Boss meters better.

 

[4barrel]

I dont tumble (yet). I use the Hornady Sonic Cleaner and the solution. Gets them really shiny. Spent enough on equipment to get started for now. If I bought a tumbler the wife would throw a fit (not really, but she wouldn't be happy). Tumbler is on my Christmas list though.

I'll just clean before I do anything. Not worried about primer pockets. Being new to reloading, I get freaked out a bit. I envisioned exploding cylinder and a trip to the ER! I know .38 splits eventually. Just surprised it happened so early, but the reloads I got at the gunstore looked old. Should never have bought them, but they were a good deal and .38 was nowhere to be found at the time. Even the box looked old. Not falling apart old, but the terminolgy on it. It read "Police Qualifier Ammunition". Wish I had a picture of it. It was either TruVelocity, or now that I think of it, SuperVelocity. Box was prinyed ".45 Auto", but had a stsicker that read .38 Special 110 grain HP. They were lead. Oh well. Live and learn. No more reloads other then mine!

As for the max charge, unless my scales were seriously off, I was MAYBE a hair at maximum for .38 special, but still well below +P. And since I was shooting them through .357, I figured what the hell. Incidentally, my new beam scale went back to Hornady. I had another thread on it. Adjustment nuts on end were spinning way past where they should have and it lost zero. I left the scale set to 3.2 grains and dropped the powder. If it was below the line, I knew it was light. Above the line I knew it was heavy. But I never let it get more than a hair above or below. If it was too much, I put the powder back in the hopper and threw another one. And I checked the scale with check weights before, during, and after the reloading session. There were a few today that were surely hotter. I felt and heard the report. Hope Trail Boss meters better.

Hello good buddy. I own 4 scales. Everyone needs 2 -one for a backup. Scales are accurate. Got to understand them. Never had a bad HORNADY PRODUCT. I said I was going to shut up but I aint dead yet. Had some bad scopes but no bad reloading stuff in over 30 years. Lyman-Dillon-RCBS- Hornady -U cant go wrong. All my scales are RCBS.

 

[fredj338]

Would some real target bullseye shooters old or young put their 2 cents in. People that win meets that roll their own? They are probably laughing tooooo hard to type. 38 or 45. RULE 3 which I like on most posts said in an old post he trims 38. What is that about in a wheel gun? He goes to that trouble & don't clean? I am in the dark on this one. Maybe he will explain to my dumb butt.

You trim brass to get uniform crimp & neck tension, so some argument can be made for that as rimmed cases do stretch a bit. Cleaning primer pockets, never, not ever on handgun brass. They only get so dirty then that is it. I've tested my best precision rifle loads with clean & dirty primer pockets, the\y shoot identically, in the high 3s.