steps acquiring a SBR and suppressor

[cycle]

hey guys,
can anyone outline the steps to legally building and owning a SBR and a suppressor?
I know it takes almost a year for some of the paperwork to be completed so I want to know what can I do in the meantime while waiting.
example:
when to submit the paperwork for the SBR
when to have the barrel cut
when to submit the paper work for the suppressor
when to acquire the suppressor
what paperwork (if/any) does silencer shop submit for the buyer if purchased from them?

thanks

 

[Muss Muggins]

Paperwork first. Don't cut the barrel until everything is approved and you have all the documents. My LGS makes you pay for the suppressor up front, and helps you with the paperwork, but you don't get the suppressor until the documents are all received.

 

[ken158]

Short version of response but submit paperwork ASAP. Silencer shop has very informed employees who will walk you through the steps if you buy through them. Form 4 for silencer and form 1 if you are going to cut barrel on current owned gun or form 4 if you buy a SBR. Only cut your barrel when approved form 1 returns. Looks like forms are taking about 8 months now. You can PM me if you have detailed questions as I have been doing this a while...

 

[sithlord]

hey guys,
can anyone outline the steps to legally building and owning a SBR and a suppressor?
I know it takes almost a year for some of the paperwork to be completed so I want to know what can I do in the meantime while waiting.
example:
when to submit the paperwork for the SBR
when to have the barrel cut
when to submit the paper work for the suppressor
when to acquire the suppressor
what paperwork (if/any) does silencer shop submit for the buyer if purchased from them?

thanks

First.. Get a trust. If you're going through silencer shop, you can purchase one of their boiler plate trusts. If you don't like that, there are plenty of other online NFA gun trusts. Not endorsing - I got mine through NFA Gun Trust - Now Only $79 [now for $79].

Get a trust even if you're the only one that would be using it. It saves a bit of hassle if you change your mind down the road (eg, you get married/your SO enjoys firearms, your family members/friends want to borrow said items legally while you are out of town). Having it done as an individual means you, and only you, can posses said items. Unless you sell them. Make your TRUST NAME SHORT. Mine is <Last Name> Trust. Don't do <First name> <Last Name> National Firearms Act Revocable Living Trust. Because you have to engrave the ENTIRE Trust name on your firearm....

Second... Have your lower receiver engraved as required by the NFA. Do this before submitting paperwork in case the engraver messes up!

Third... Submit the paperwork for BOTH ASAP. The longer you wait to submit the paperwork, the longer you will wait for your tax stamp. Period. SilencerShop will submit all of the paperwork for a Form 4 (suppressor). You aren't purchasing an SBR from them, so I doubt that they will submit the Form 1 paperwork on your behalf.

Fourth.. Wait. You acquire the suppressor when the Form 4 is approved and returned to your FFL. If you don't live in Texas, and you purchase from SilencerShop, you will also need to wait for a Form 3 to be processed which transfers the item from SilencerShop in Texas to your local FFL SOT.

Fifth.. When you receive your Form 1 SBR paperwork back approved, THEN you can send your barrel out for cutting and threading. Note - the length you specify on the Form 1 does NOT need to match the actual barrel length; there is no requirement that this be done in the law, and nothing prohibits you from 'changing your mind'.

I have multiple SBRs and suppressors; this is the process.....

HTH

 

[da gimp]

how much does it hurt the value of say a fully transferable Class III M1A1 Thompson, an M3 grease gun,a BAR etc., etc., etc.,..engraved with Joe Blow's Firearms trust? 90% or 95% of the value is lost? I would not purchase any historic Curio & Relic Class III weapon with that crud engraved on it... unless it was dern dirt cheap....in the low hundreds...I can't think of people who would do so either, unless it was given to them in a will.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I thought trusts were kind of going away with the new rule about every trustee having to be fingerprinted every time now . . .

 

[sithlord]

how much does it hurt the value of say a fully transferable Class III M1A1 Thompson, an M3 grease gun,a BAR etc., etc., etc.,..engraved with Joe Blow's Firearms trust? 90% or 95% of the value is lost? I would not purchase any historic Curio & Relic Class III weapon with that crud engraved on it... unless it was dern dirt cheap....in the low hundreds...I can't think of people who would do so either, unless it was given to them in a will.

If you are making an NFA item (SBR, SBS, MG, Suppressor, AOW)... The rules are it has to be engraved with the MAKERS INFO (Name, Address). Period. Doesn't matter if its an individual or a trust. So it'll say "Joe Bobs Trust", or "Joe Bob". This is ONLY TRUE for those MAKING an NFA ITEM.

As far as the comment about a grease gun and its value... Unless you MANUFACTURED the machine gun (prior to 1986, of course), the machine gun would only be engraved with the Manufacturer's mark (eg, Colt, Browning, Thompson), as you would have purchased it as a Form 4 (transfer), not a Form 1 (manufacturer). So, guess what - it won't hurt the value at all......

Only the original manufacturer has to meet the engraving requirements. Making an NFA Item is a Form 1. A grease gun was sold by Thompson as a machine gun.. Thus, they are the Maker of the NFA item, and THEY engrave it. When you TRANSFER the item to someone (or a trust, corporation, etc), there is NO engraving required. It can be transferred 100 times (each with it's own $200 stamp), and it would NEVER have to be marked again.

I thought trusts were kind of going away with the new rule about every trustee having to be fingerprinted every time now . . .

Not at all. While the requirements for a trust are now the same (or worse) than that of an individual (everyone needs fingerprinting, etc), the BENEFITS are still there. My wife and I both shoot, as do other family members. By having a trust, one can add/remove trustees at will, and allow other people to have access to these items. She can use any of the items while I'm out of town. Without Government Permission. Try doing that as an individual owner of an NFA item.

 

[LittleCooner]

when to submit the paper work for the suppressor
when to acquire the suppressor
what paperwork (if/any) does silencer shop submit for the buyer if purchased from them?

thanks[/QUOTE]

What appears to have not been answered so far is that you need to purchase your suppressor now. They are serial numbered just like the firearms. You have to purchase your specific suppressor, make payment so it becomes your suppressor. Then the form is submitted to obtain the stamp, with you or your Trust name on the form along with brand and serial number of your suppressor. You can not take possession of the suppressor until the stamp is returned in your name. It remains in the possession of the seller and when the stamp is mailed, you just "pick it up" as all paperwork and payment has previously been completed. I hopes this better answers your questions on the steps required.

 

[WNC Seabee]

OP....What state are you in? I'd find a good LOCAL FFL that deals in suppressors. #1, a local person will save you time and money in transfers Silencer Shop and #2, you get a bit more hand holding. Of course, not all FFLs are created equally, so do your research and get references.

Assuming you are buying a factory made suppressor (Form 4) vs making your own (Form 1)...Essentially you will buy - but not take delivery of - your suppressor before the paperwork gets submitted. The paperwork needs a model and serial number, so that just makes sense, right? The FFL will hold your suppressor in his safe - it's YOURS - until the paperwork (stamp) comes back.

For the SBR, you will submit a Form 1 via the ATF's efile site (https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/). The Form 1 will need the Make, Model, SN of the gun that WILL BECOME the SBR. It will also ask you for the barrel length and overall length you intend to build. Don't actually cut a barrel or buy a shorter length barrel until you have the stamp back.

We can't promote other websites here....if we could I would mention that you can find detailed step-by-step instructions with screen shots and scanned examples at my local state's forum.

 

[cycle]

OP....What state are you in? I'd find a good LOCAL FFL that deals in suppressors. #1, a local person will save you time and money in transfers Silencer Shop and #2, you get a bit more hand holding. Of course, not all FFLs are created equally, so do your research and get references.

Assuming you are buying a factory made suppressor (Form 4) vs making your own (Form 1)...Essentially you will buy - but not take delivery of - your suppressor before the paperwork gets submitted. The paperwork needs a model and serial number, so that just makes sense, right? The FFL will hold your suppressor in his safe - it's YOURS - until the paperwork (stamp) comes back.

For the SBR, you will submit a Form 1 via the ATF's efile site (https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/). The Form 1 will need the Make, Model, SN of the gun that WILL BECOME the SBR. It will also ask you for the barrel length and overall length you intend to build. Don't actually cut a barrel or buy a shorter length barrel until you have the stamp back.

We can't promote other websites here....if we could I would mention that you can find detailed step-by-step instructions with screen shots and scanned examples at my local state's forum.

I'm in tn...there is a local dealer that's linked to the silencer shop that I can pick it up from. Looks like there is no transfer fee.

 

[cycle]

First.. Get a trust. If you're going through silencer shop, you can purchase one of their boiler plate trusts. If you don't like that, there are plenty of other online NFA gun trusts. Not endorsing - I got mine through NFA Gun Trust - Now Only $79 [now for $79].

Get a trust even if you're the only one that would be using it. It saves a bit of hassle if you change your mind down the road (eg, you get married/your SO enjoys firearms, your family members/friends want to borrow said items legally while you are out of town). Having it done as an individual means you, and only you, can posses said items. Unless you sell them. Make your TRUST NAME SHORT. Mine is <Last Name> Trust. Don't do <First name> <Last Name> National Firearms Act Revocable Living Trust. Because you have to engrave the ENTIRE Trust name on your firearm....

Second... Have your lower receiver engraved as required by the NFA. Do this before submitting paperwork in case the engraver messes up!

Third... Submit the paperwork for BOTH ASAP. The longer you wait to submit the paperwork, the longer you will wait for your tax stamp. Period. SilencerShop will submit all of the paperwork for a Form 4 (suppressor). You aren't purchasing an SBR from them, so I doubt that they will submit the Form 1 paperwork on your behalf.

Fourth.. Wait. You acquire the suppressor when the Form 4 is approved and returned to your FFL. If you don't live in Texas, and you purchase from SilencerShop, you will also need to wait for a Form 3 to be processed which transfers the item from SilencerShop in Texas to your local FFL SOT.

Fifth.. When you receive your Form 1 SBR paperwork back approved, THEN you can send your barrel out for cutting and threading. Note - the length you specify on the Form 1 does NOT need to match the actual barrel length; there is no requirement that this be done in the law, and nothing prohibits you from 'changing your mind'.

I have multiple SBRs and suppressors; this is the process.....

HTH

thanks for the steps.
how do find an engraver and where on the receiver do they put your info.
I was looking at doing one stop shop with silencer shop for the convenience.

 

[sithlord]

thanks for the steps.
how do find an engraver and where on the receiver do they put your info.
I was looking at doing one stop shop with silencer shop for the convenience.

Google search. Your ffl might be able to help.

As far as where.. it can be anywhere on the lower receiver. I have one on the mag well with a custom logo done by Orion arms in MN. My ffl did another in the trigger guard area. Be careful... new regs state you have to have an ffl do it ( not even supposed to do it yourself). Trophy shops used to be able to do it... now engraving is considered manufacturing and thus must be done by an ffl.

 

[cycle]

Google search. Your ffl might be able to help.

As far as where.. it can be anywhere on the lower receiver. I have one on the mag well with a custom logo done by Orion arms in MN. My ffl did another in the trigger guard area. Be careful... new regs state you have to have an ffl do it ( not even supposed to do it yourself). Trophy shops used to be able to do it... now engraving is considered manufacturing and thus must be done by an ffl.

thanks...and the complications plays on....
if I purchase the gemtech gm 22 will I need to have anything special done to the barrel to get it to fit properly. It's not definite on the gemtech vs sparrow but i'm looking to get the barrel cut anywhere fro 6 to 10" . I'm still reading the forums on the pros and cons for different lengths.
i'm going to do this once...sparrow or gemtech or will I be satisfied with either. i't going to be used for plinking and maybe an occasional small game hunting.

 

[telero]

Be careful... new regs state you have to have an ffl do it ( not even supposed to do it yourself). Trophy shops used to be able to do it... now engraving is considered manufacturing and thus must be done by an ffl.

Source please. I don't believe that is true. Engraving is not making/manufacturing. You can do it yourself, and the only reason an non FFL engraver wouldn't be able to do it is if you dropped it off and left the area.

 

[Buckshot Barry]

Be aware that the ATF 41F rules went in to affect July 13, 2016.

My 2 NFA items are registered with my LLC when the paperwork was done in 2014, but if I did it today I would go personal. Just my situation, yours may vary.

This web page seems to cover the changes pretty well.

ATF 41F & Buying a Silencer - 6 Things You Need to Know - SilencerCo

 

[CATI1835]

First.. Get a trust.
Second... Have your lower receiver engraved as required by the NFA. Do this before submitting paperwork in case the engraver messes up!

First - Get a trust, absolutely, even though the rules recently changed, get a trust.

Second - I am not sure the engraving is a requirement. My attorney (I used an attorney for the trust) did not think the engraving was a requirement. I looked at the NFA requirements and am not sure either.

Perhaps someone with some real knowledge will chime in.

I will add, the engraving requirements I am referencing are words to the effect:
"JONES FAMILY TRUST"
"ANYTOWN, USA"

I used a commercially made AR lower, already having the "manufacturer's" markings on it. I simply replaced the upper with a SBR upper. My attorney said the "trust" engravings were not required because all the NFA requirements are already met. And I do not intend to sell it.

However, if you manufactured the lower from an 80% lower, the answer is probably different. You actually become the "manufacturer" of the firearm. The NFA engraving requirements are here, they start about page 43:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiN0Znd_uzRAhWJ34MKHVmTCCsQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Fresource-center%2Fdocs%2Fatf-p-5320-8pdf-0%2Fdownload&usg=AFQjCNHLsqyFhkvtDxZjgJYNCMC5qcyLrw&sig2=96p6ODPrcU3Pg1H087pS7Q&cad=rja

Also more information here, about 4 paragraphs in:

Do You Need to Engrave Your Form 1'ed SBR? - The Truth About Guns

 

[sithlord]

First - Get a trust, absolutely, even though the rules recently changed, get a trust.

Second - I am not sure the engraving is a requirement. My attorney (I used an attorney for the trust) did not think the engraving was a requirement. I looked at the NFA requirements and am not sure either.

You referenced TTAG. I'll reference LAW.

NFA Form 5320.1 (Form 1) it titled:
Application to Make and Register a Firearm

Law:
§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
....

QED the Maker of an NFA item must mark said item.

As to an earlier question about requiring an FFL to perform the engraving.. I believe I was conflating two unrelated issues (Gunsmiths and ITAR and engraving.. Engravers do not need to apply for ITAR); I can't find where engraving by FFL is required, although you would be handing a firearm over to someone without a background check....

 

[Buckshot Barry]

If you "Make" an NFA item, i.e. when I modified my Zestava M85 pistol in to a SBR using a Form 1, I had to engrave it with my LLC name and City / State.

When I purchased an AAC suppressor that is on a Form 4, I did not have to engrave my LLC name and City / State

 

[sithlord]

If you "Make" an NFA item, i.e. when I modified my Zestava M85 pistol in to a SBR using a Form 1, I had to engrave it with my LLC name and City / State.

When I purchased an AAC suppressor that is on a Form 4, I did not have to engrave my LLC name and City / State

That's because you didn't MAKE the suppressor. AAC did, and they did engrave their information on it.

A Form 5320.1 (Form 1) is for 'Making' an NFA item. Form 5320.4 (Form 4) is for 'Transferring an NFA item'. Completely separate forms, completely different marking requirements. No additional marking is required for a Form 4.

If you made your own suppressors, YOU would have to mark it, per the marking requirements specified in law.

Violent agreement, and being pendantically specific.

 

[vipermd]

if I purchase the gemtech gm 22 will I need to have anything special done to the barrel to get it to fit properly.

I suggest you look at Silencer Shop first. They have arrangements will many FFL/SOT's. You decide what you want, look at their list of FFL's and the price of that FFL for the can of your choice. After you decide on which one and which FFL- contact Silencer Shop, pay for suppressor, they will file Form 3 to transfer to FFL, they will also file form 4 ( Tax Stamp ) and there is no transfer fee. You may have to pay tax on Suppressor depending on your state- Mi requires Tax be paid on suppressor- since dealer is acting as "broker" in this case. The FFL will hold the can till ATF sends stamp To dealer, then you go fill out 4473, ( pay tax if needed ) and can is now yours. Silencer Shop is very good about doing paperwork correctly and quickly, and I have not be able to find lower prices on most cans, without transfer fees.
As for the barrel threading- it is important that the person doing the threading knows what they are doing- Just because they can thread it does not mean that they will do it correctly. I use a local smith who is FFL/SOT he "tunes" thread to can. You will need a Copy of your stamp ( form 4 ) to leave it with the FFL/SOT. Be Safe,