Struggling with J Frames

[kbm6893]

I’ve had a few. A 36, a 640, 2 642’s, and now a very nice Model 60 no dash. I just don’t shoot them well. My 60 has factory round butt stocks now wearing a Tyler T grip. I suck at shooting it. At 10 yards, I can hit paper. But a BIG group on paper. It was worse before the T grips.

The 642’s both had rubber boot grips. No better. I guess I can start spending money in multiple grips to hope it improves, but I hope I don’t wind up with a box of grips I have discarded.

I love the 60. Made in 1975. Very good condition. But target or range gun it ain’t. I shot 100 rounds of my pretty mild reloads today. Sore spot on trigger finger. I have at least 1000 Rounds through it and it isn’t getting any better. If I can’t shoot 100 Rounds at a time, how can I get better?

I’ve been shooting a long time. Any other gun at 15 yards and they’re all nearly touching each other. J frame? Just can’t figure it out. At bad breath range, sure, I’ll hit the target. Who wouldn’t? But I don’t want to shoot the same as an arthritic lady in a wheelchair.

 

[oneounceload]

Have you tried the Delta Ergo grip? Ugly as sin, but makes your hand/wrist alignment a better angle

 

[H Richard]

I'd bet you have larger hands. You need grips that fit you in order to control the small light handguns. Get a hand filling grip and put it on that Mod 60 and see what that does.



Note the larger wood grip you can get all three fingers securely on it, and the Pachmayer compacts fill out the grip pretty good. Ignore the Mod 40, I don't shoot it.

 

[Old cop]

I have big hands and set up my J frame w/a grip adapter too. If you can hit a paper plate, rapid fire, 10 times @ three yards w/one combat reload (speed loader or speed strip) you can protect yourself.

 

[dubshooter]

Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.

I get most of my practice with my guns, duty or CCW guns, with dry fire. Let’s you get to know your guns, see what you’re doing to the gun when you pull the trigger, gets you used to the grip and trigger, and can help smooth everything out.

Invest in some snap caps. You can practice draw, fire, unload reload. Work on all kinds of drills.

 

[kbm6893]

Yeah, I know bigger grips will probably help the groups, but it doesn’t seem like it’s worth it to put big grips on a small gun.

Dry fire? Do it it all the time. Have snap caps in the revolver as it sits in the safe.

3 yards? I’m sure I can hit it ten times. Just not used to gauging my skill at such a short distance. I know J Frames are up close guns, but I shoot my Bodyguard .380 better at longer ranges

 

[Fishinfool]

I have only one J frame left, and keep it more for sentimental reasons than anything else. I too, just cannot shoot a J frame well, at least not well enough to satisfy me.

I have been a pretty serious handgun shooter since the late 1970's, and usually do fairly well, but J frame satisfaction has eluded me as well. I just accept it at this point.

That said, there are things you can do to improve your ability with those guns.

Larger grips, that fit your hand well, and provide proper trigger pull angle help a lot, but detract from concealabilty. With big grips, might as well carry a smooth shooting K frame snub.

As far as your trigger finger goes, are your triggers serrated? If so, you will find much comfort in DA shooting with smooth, polished trigger faces. At least I do.

For self defense use, accuracy is nice, but if you can keep them all on center mass at 10 yards firing quickly in DA, then you are really good to go.

Like you, "good enough", isn't good enough for me. I usually carry a sub compact 1911, or a small striker fired plastic 9mm - Conceals just as well, more fire power, and I shoot them a lot better. For pocket carry, its an old Ruger LCP, which I shoot better than I do my J frames, lack of sights and all.

I guess it really just boils down to what fits your hand, and what you have confidence in. There are 1001 carry gun options out there, and everyone has their favorites that inspire confidence, and work well for them.

Larry

 

[snubbyfan]

How 'bout like a gimpy Injun that almost ended up in a wheelchair?
I have a Pachmayr Compact grip on my 442.
I shot this:


From about this far away, I'm the guy on the left with the hair.


With this:


That's a Laserlyte laser on it and I used it mostly for dry fire practice. I'd put a red dot on the tummy of my wife's favorite stuffed Pooh Bear and practice keeping it there all the way through the trigger pull.

 

[daddy bear]

I have a 42 with a banana grip that I pocket Cary. Much easier to conceal than my 2" K frame. I keep thteatening to remove all or most of that grip below the grip frame. I have five J frames. I think the secret to shooting them well starts with pulling the trigger straight back. If your hand is not far enough or too far into the grip, it causes you to pull to one or the other side.Most Js could benefit from a pro trigger job. I also have the grip shown in the above post on a 60. Not really big on rubber, but it works for me.

Best,

Jack

 

[two-bit cowboy]

J's just keep multiplying here. My favorite platform.

Shootability is all about the grips ("stocks" for those folks).

Here are a few choices that work for my big mitts. I primarily shoot double action (even if the gun will do otherwise)!

1. My edc: 640 Pro with Karl Nill internal hammer grips (for Centennials). Nill also makes them for exposed hammer models, like your 60.

2. My bug: M&P 340 with Hogue Tamer (for Centennials). I also have these on my 43C, .22 long rifle -- what a dream.

3. 1968 Model 36 with Altamont rosewood combats (really sweet).

4. 1989 Model 36-2 factory Double Action Only with factory combats. (Yes, I'm a fan!)

5. 1989 Model 36-6 Target with factory Hogue Monogrip (ugly as your sister's boyfriend, but really comfortable).

Hope this helps,

Bob

 

[Doug M.]

J frames are capable of the same accuracy as any other good quality revolver. Some people can even show that. I can, sorta, but only if I shoot really slowly.

The sights are tiny and I find them hard to see, especially if trying to shoot in a hurry. My only J frame (a 940) has had the front sight replaced with an XS dot so I can see it. I also have the Crimson Trace Laser grips (405s, I think, with the additional cushioning, partly for the laser, partly for the cushioning as I find J frames more than a little unpleasant to shoot.

Then, because of the different spring system and limited room (so less friendly geometry) the trigger weight is greater. Of itself, that make shooting well a little harder. When you consider that the weight of the revolver to counterbalance the force put into the trigger is less than other revolvers, it becomes a little clearer that there is a double whammy of "not good". A trigger job can help, if well done; a lot of dry firing will help, and using a laser as described by Snubbyfan to watch the point of aim is also useful.

Will I ever be great with it? No. I won't be with any firearm. Will I be adequate with it for the purposes for which I am likely to use it? Yes. A J, to me, is almost never anything but a BUG. As a sole handgun, it something I would carry only because it is that or nothing, and "nothing" is a hell of a problem if you need "something". Each shooter has to determine their needs and comfort levels. If I want to look like I can shoot well, I use my K38.

 

[iPac]

Perhaps try a D frame?

Seriously though. I have handled J frames, and they are quite small, even to a small guy like me. Turned down a nice 36 no dash because of size. I could see some people just not being able to shoot them well. A D frame is about all the smaller I'll go.

The J frames are plenty capable though.

 

[LedFowl]

Have you tried the Delta Ergo grip? Ugly as sin, but makes your hand/wrist alignment a better angle

The dreaded Ergo.

 

[AZretired]

I only have 2 J frames right now ( a 638 & 642) but I have carrying and shooting them for 40 years. If I take my time I can shoot nice neat 3" groups at 10 yards. But what counts is can you keep them on a paper plate from 3 to 15 yards rapid fire.
My carry guns have Altamont boot grips and while I can shoot ok with them when I go to the range one of my J's wears Pacmayr Compacs. They are still small enough for some pocket carry and allow me to shoot 100 or more rounds comfortably.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[zogger]

My last outing with my 60 3" at 5 yrds. If you are shooting worst that this then you have an issue.

 

[StakeOut]

I have no J frames presently but when I had a Colt DS and an S&W 36 I didn't use anything but the factory grips and wrapped my long piano fingers around the grips till my finger nails were digging into the palm.

At the range I shot 3,5,and 7 yds at a ICE-QT Target trying to put the max amount of rounds on target in the least amount of time.

In 2 actually shootings with the DS I was so close to the assailant I could touch them.

 

[reddog81]

I'm in the same boat as the OP. With just about any K frame I can shoot a fist sized group at 15 yards with ease. I can do the same with with my model 60 at about 5 yards. I need to shoot more J frame sized guns to determine if it's me or the gun, however at this point I'd rather sell the model 60 than buy another J frame.

 

[rockquarry]

Just some thoughts based on shooting a few J-frames for a while; nothing worthy of argument...

These guns are surprisingly accurate but most unforgiving of poor shooter skill. To master, they require more serious practice time than many shooters want to invest.

The "gunfights occur at short distances" excuse is usually nothing more than a reason not to practice sufficiently to shoot these guns well. Learning to shoot at 25 yards will quickly point out skill shortcomings. Practicing at 15 yards or less will usually produce good groups even with poor ammunition. There is little or no benefit to the shooter in the way of skill enhancement.

J-frame snub-nosed guns are designed for concealment. if at all possible, learn to shoot with the factory grips. You'll likely find none more concealable.

There are exceptions, but grip adapters have more cosmetic appeal than usefulness.

Learn to shoot before adding gadgetry like laser grips. If after having mastered J-frame shooting and the need for such an item persists, try it and see if anything improves.

Practice a lot and do it right and use the smallest target you can see clearly without eyestrain, at 25 yards, of course. Magnum, +P, or standard pressure loads don't matter. Shoot whatever you can consistently hit well with. Good luck-

 

[dubshooter]

In order to carry a BUG at work (and by policy, off duty, but that contradicts state law), we have to qualify with the same course as our duty weapon. We shoot at 25, 15, 7, and 3. With practice, I can shoot the semi auto course (different times for reloads than revolver) just as well with my snub nosed 640 and Model 38 as I can with my Glock 17. Last qual with my 640 was a 240/250. It can be done. The guns have it in them.

I find that shooting my revolvers well has helped me to shoot my semi autos better as well.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

The dreaded Ergo.

I'm going to have to try those one of these days!

 

[oneounceload]

The dreaded Ergo.

But it WORKS, doesn't it? Makes the grip angle just more comfortable and as a result, more accurate - at least for me

 

[dr. mordo]

OP, what do you think the problem is?

It sounds like it hurts your hand even with mild reloads, so are you anticipating the recoil?

Or is the platform just so small you are having trouble dialing it in?

I personally have a love/hate relationship with my J frames, all of which are airweight.

I love to carry them. I love to shoot them. I shoot them about as well as my larger revolvers.

However, they tear up my shooting hand quickly, especially with the +P I often carry for SD and shoot for practice.

The wood grip that came on my 637 PC was absolute murder on my hand. I replaced it with a Pachmayr Compac, which really helped lessen the damage to my hand. I also started wearing a thin rbberized work glove with the trigger finger cut off. Between the glove and the grip, my hand does much better, I've had sessions where I shot 200 roundds thru my J frame before I tore a blister.

But that's the problem now - my J frames tear a blister in my hand where the lowest joint it is at the base of my thumb. I think the rubber grip is contributing to the blister problem.

The one thing that has seemed to help is a more modern rubber grip that cushions the hand - unfortunately the only two I know about are proprietary. These grips provide a section at the back of the grip that cushions your hand a bit and absorbs some of the sharpest recoil. My Ruger LCR327 came with a grip that made .327 Magnum easier on my hand than .38 SPL +P in my 637. That LCR grip will not fit a S&W, period. Due to this, I'm quite certain I'll end up buying a LCR .38 or .357 at some point. Taurus employs a similar concept in their new grip designs. My Taurus M85UL is is their imitation of my 637, and when I shot them side by side the 85 has noticeably less snap thanks to those new grips. I actually got a set of those new grips off ebay for my 637, but they need a minor modification that I haven't gotten around to yet. Instead I've just been shooting/carrying the M85 while the 637 sits in the safe.

Finally, one last suggestion - get a 2" Model 10!

 

[Chukar60]

I love J frames. I hate J frames!!! Love the size and light carry weight. They are accurate. I cannot shoot the light weight models or the snub versions very well at all. I now have a 3" 60 and the gun is much easier to shoot well.
The short barrels on the snub version is just too dang touchy about form for me and the light weight versions are not stable enough. I know a lot of guys shoot the snubs and light weight models well. I cannot.

 

[Mistered]

Withing an hour of buying my Mod 60-0 I was installing a set of Pachmayr Diamond Pro grips on it - they turned it into a 'new gun' I can shoot into 2" +/- with it at 25 yards.

 

[haywood]

I practice no farther than 30 feet with my J Frames. I just don’t shoot them that well at the indoor Range. Outside I seem to be a lot better. I guess / hope it’s the lighting. Within that 30 feet I get good groups.

 

[RoadVirus]

My breakthrough on J frames happened when I started to put more finger on the trigger. Instead of using the tip , try poking your finger as far as you can through the trigger guard. For me this puts the the second pad on the trigger. Try some dry firing when you read this and see if you don't have more control of the weapon.

 

[kbm6893]

OP, what do you think the problem is?

It sounds like it hurts your hand even with mild reloads, so are you anticipating the recoil?

Or is the platform just so small you are having trouble dialing it in?

I personally have a love/hate relationship with my J frames, all of which are airweight.

I love to carry them. I love to shoot them. I shoot them about as well as my larger revolvers.

However, they tear up my shooting hand quickly, especially with the +P I often carry for SD and shoot for practice.

The wood grip that came on my 637 PC was absolute murder on my hand. I replaced it with a Pachmayr Compac, which really helped lessen the damage to my hand. I also started wearing a thin rbberized work glove with the trigger finger cut off. Between the glove and the grip, my hand does much better, I've had sessions where I shot 200 roundds thru my J frame before I tore a blister.

But that's the problem now - my J frames tear a blister in my hand where the lowest joint it is at the base of my thumb. I think the rubber grip is contributing to the blister problem.

The one thing that has seemed to help is a more modern rubber grip that cushions the hand - unfortunately the only two I know about are proprietary. These grips provide a section at the back of the grip that cushions your hand a bit and absorbs some of the sharpest recoil. My Ruger LCR327 came with a grip that made .327 Magnum easier on my hand than .38 SPL +P in my 637. That LCR grip will not fit a S&W, period. Due to this, I'm quite certain I'll end up buying a LCR .38 or .357 at some point. Taurus employs a similar concept in their new grip designs. My Taurus M85UL is is their imitation of my 637, and when I shot them side by side the 85 has noticeably less snap thanks to those new grips. I actually got a set of those new grips off ebay for my 637, but they need a minor modification that I haven't gotten around to yet. Instead I've just been shooting/carrying the M85 while the 637 sits in the safe.

Finally, one last suggestion - get a 2" Model 10!

I have no idea what my problem is. When I got the gun, it did not have the Tyler t grip and my middle finger got whacked with the recoil every time. The Tyler cured that. There is no pain in firing the gun. The sore trigger finger is probably from the serrated trigger, but it doesn’t blister up anymore. Just a bit red for a few hours.

As for my accuracy, I was shooting at about 10 yards. Aiming at the X on a B27 silhouette target, I was hitting about 8inches left and pretty level. I started aiming at the head for a fresh no holes target area, and I missed the head nearly every time. As for groupings, about an 8 inch spread. Granted, some of those groups were fired pretty fast, as a self defense shooting would be. I’ve tried different finger positions, from nearly the tip to the first joint. No change.

Maybe I’ll try the Pachmayr compacts. How do they compare to the new pachmayr grips? I forget the name.

 

[S&WsRsweet]

Grant Cunningham wrote a book called Book of the Revolver that changed my whole mindset on trigger,trigger finger interface and I must say I threw the whole first pad of the finger concept away and started useing the first or " power" joint of my finger to " stroke" the trigger and have started useing this technique in all my shooting even rifles .That one chapter is more than worth the cost of tne book in my opinion .

 

[Guevera]

I have a couple of J frames, but an not satisfied with my ability to use them well. I switched to this Walther PPK and it is much more accurate in my hands and easier to conceal as well. I know, I know, .380 vs 38 Special, but for me, I can place multiple and accurate shots on the target with the PPK in the time I'd still be fiddling around with the sights on the little revolver. Just my experience.

 

[rockquarry]

Nothing wrong with a Walther .380. I've never been able to see much difference in the "shootability" aspect of a Walther .380 vs. a snubnose J-frame .38 Special, but that's something that may vary from one shooter to another. Neither are beginner's guns.

Shooting the Walther well means far more than the .380 vs. .38 Special debate. I've found the Walther .380s to be jam-free even with cast bullet handloads and the guns are capable of surprisingly good accuracy even at 25 yards.