stupid question about 625

[maxx]

I have heard the frame mounted firing pin models (625-6 and on) can have issues if not using moon clips. I remember seeing an extended firing pin on Brownells that is supposed to address that.

Never heard of hammer mounted firing pin models (625-2,3,4) having that issue.

 

[M29since14]

(For nn) I have never actually checked OAL of a loaded round that has been in any of my 625s for 4 or 5 shots and then been extracted, but I have never had any sign of a problem, and I have never heard of anyone complain about that. Usually this is something you see with a revolver that kicks much harder and faster.

How much movement of the bullet are you getting? Are you just talking about a few thousandths, or is this something you can detect visually (without measuring tools)?

 

[nn]

(For nn) I have never actually checked OAL of a loaded round that has been in any of my 625s for 4 or 5 shots and then been extracted, but I have never had any sign of a problem, and I have never heard of anyone complain about that. Usually this is something you see with a revolver that kicks much harder and faster.

How much movement of the bullet are you getting? Are you just talking about a few thousandths, or is this something you can detect visually (without measuring tools)?

I can see it, esp when putting new rnds in the clip next to that rnd. The lead rnd, after 10 rnds was adout a 1/32" though that is a guess, though there was a new gap between the SWC bullet and the brass.

 

[Dale53]

Back to the original question. Measure the headspace both with and without the full moon clips. If there is materially more headspace (distance between case head and recoil plate) when not using the clips then the rounds should not be fired without clips even if they go off. This is not good for the revolver.

If there is no material difference in headspace and your rounds won't reliably fire, then the replacement of the firing pin CAN help this. I use the Apex Tactical "duty" extra length firing pin. I have also tried Cylinder & Slide firing pins but had a failure with their pin (Note: Cylinder and Slide do NOT recommend dry firing with their firing pins whereas Apex does not caution against dry firing).

Keep in mind that the "extra length" firing pins are not actually longer but the slot in the side lets them EXTEND further. Amounts to the same thing, I guess...

At any rate, the extra length pins are relatively easy to change (if you know how to safely remove the revolver side plate).

FWIW
Dale53

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

My 2 ea -3's will not fire 100% without moon clips. BTW I use full moons and lot of AR too.

 

[nn]

Back to the original question. Measure the headspace both with and without the full moon clips. If there is materially more headspace (distance between case head and recoil plate) when not using the clips then the rounds should not be fired without clips even if they go off. This is not good for the revolver.

If there is no material difference in headspace and your rounds won't reliably fire, then the replacement of the firing pin CAN help this. I use the Apex Tactical "duty" extra length firing pin. I have also tried Cylinder & Slide firing pins but had a failure with their pin (Note: Cylinder and Slide do NOT recommend dry firing with their firing pins whereas Apex does not caution against dry firing).

Keep in mind that the "extra length" firing pins are not actually longer but the slot in the side lets them EXTEND further. Amounts to the same thing, I guess...

At any rate, the extra length pins are relatively easy to change (if you know how to safely remove the revolver side plate).

FWIW
Dale53

I have .018 difference-.025" difference in the head space,
and it won't shoot without the clips.

 

[M29since14]

I have .018 difference-.025" difference in the head space,
and it won't shoot without the clips.

To tell what is going on you really need to measure headspace using a gage. You "might" come close IF you are absolutely sure your test cartridges are the same diameter and length as a .45 ACP headspace gage, but that could be problematic.

I don't know if revolver cartridge headspace gages are like rifle cartridges (go, no-go, and field) but I would think you would at least need to be able to gage the go and no-go dimensions (or minimum- and maximum-chamber). It seems Handejector just said recently (elsewhere) that he could not find established SAAMI dimenions for .45 ACP in a revolver - didn't he?

In any case, you would need to know what those dimensions should be, and then... you would need to know whether your ammunition conforms to SAAMI standards. It is not as simple as just dropping a cartridge in your gun, closing it, and testing it with feeler gages.

 

[nn]

To tell what is going on you really need to measure headspace using a gage. You "might" come close IF you are absolutely sure your test cartridges are the same diameter and length as a .45 ACP headspace gage, but that could be problematic.

I don't know if revolver cartridge headspace gages are like rifle cartridges (go, no-go, and field) but I would think you would at least need to be able to gage the go and no-go dimensions (or minimum- and maximum-chamber). It seems Handejector just said recently (elsewhere) that he could not find established SAAMI dimenions for .45 ACP in a revolver - didn't he?

In any case, you would need to know what those dimensions should be, and then... you would need to know whether your ammunition conforms to SAAMI standards. It is not as simple as just dropping a cartridge in your gun, closing it, and testing it with feeler gages.

I understand most of what you say; but, it is getting too technical if I
have to check factory ammo for dimension correctness and if they meet
SAAMI standards when they come from Rem, Winchester, federal, or Hornady; this does not mean one should not check the ammo they buy
for obvious defects.

Besides I did not just drop it in and close it, I put one in a moonclip
and others in sans clip to either side.

But, I am now convinced the non firing without a clip is just the way
the -6 and newer guns work.

The issue now is why do bullets pull, it is not that high a recoil rnd
and it is not limited to a few brands, it is everything.

It probably is happening to everyone with a 625 and they haven't
noticed because they shoot the gun empty.

Making a reference like

Handejector just said recently (elsewhere)----Didn't he

doesn't help much because I would not know where without a link.

 

[oldbrownhat]

No offence intended to the O/P or anyone else here, but I don't see why you'd not want to use moonclips in a 625, as they were intended for use with them, even if some earlier models will fire OK w/o. If they're too much hassle (even the RIMZ polymer ones, which are convenient for practice), load up some Auto Rim brass. Best of both worlds.

Stuart

 

[KEN L]

I've got a 1917, as old as you can get for a Smith revolver chambered for .45 ACP. I've shot it many times without the clips. Just gotta pick the empties out with your fingernails or use something to push em out with. I especially liked shooting it with .45 Auto Rims, but full moon clips are the way to go. Just ask Jerry!

 

[nn]

No offence intended to the O/P or anyone else here, but I don't see why you'd not want to use moonclips in a 625, as they were intended for use with them, even if some earlier models will fire OK w/o. If they're too much hassle (even the RIMZ polymer ones, which are convenient for practice), load up some Auto Rim brass. Best of both worlds.

Stuart

For the most part I agree, it is only a just in case
scenario----moonclips bend, a person might forget them, or maybe
an emergency.

Or maybe the Internet ninjas have been telling me my gun is broke because it won't shoot without clips as their -1 does or a -2 610 or a 9mm speed six.

But, there is a reason they don't----it would have been better if S&W had addressed the issue in their owners manual.

 

[Coastie762]

To get a comparison of chamber depths between my two .45 revolvers, I placed an unfired case in a charge hole in firing position and used feeler gauges to measure the gap between the case and recoil shield.

The 625-8 measured a .017" gap. The 1955 measured .002". Just to clarify, this is NOT a headspace measurement, only showing the differences in the two chambers.

I have not yet attempted to fire .45 ACPs in the -8 without clips. However, I'll have it at the range later this morning testing some AR loads and will have to give it a try, if only to satisfy my own curiousity.

 

[Coastie762]

Back from the range shooting the 625-8 with some interesting results. I tested two different .45 ACP loads over my chrony both with and without a moon clip. I predicted that the loads shot without the clip would either not fire reliably or if they did, ignition would be erratic.

Of course, I was wrong.

Each string was one cylinder (06 rounds) each. The firing pin and mainspring are both stock.

First load was a 200 gr Lasercast SWC over 3.9 grains of Clays sparked by a Federal 150 primer in a RP .45 ACP case. Fired with a moon clip the load averaged 782 FPS, extreme spread of 36 FPS. Without the clip the load averaged 757 FPS with an extreme spread of 44 FPS.

The second load was a 185 gr Hornady XTP-HP over 6.2 grains of Bullseye in CCI (small pistol primer) cases using CCI 500 primers. Using a moon clip, this load averaged 986 FPS and an extreme spread of 38 FPS. Without the moon clip, the load went 951 FPS also with an extreme spread of 38 FPS.

All primers, whether fired using a moon clip or not exhibited a deep solid indentation. Most surprisingly, there was little to no difference in velocity spreads. Each load did show a small drop in average velocity by the loads fired (25 and 35 FPS, respectively) without a moon clip.

Obviously this is a very limited test and not statistically significant. I have no inclination to regularly shoot .45 ACP loads without the clips, however the fact that it will do so is good to know (and for me at least, intriguing).

 

[gagunner 2]

Thanks for posting your results.I have a 625-6 and was wondering about firing it firing wthout clips as the manual says to use them always.
I know both my 25-5 and 625-3 will.

 

[nn]

Coastie762:
That is good news.

 

[Coastie762]

Thanks. The results were interesting. Like I said, they were not what I expected but thats part of the fun of this hobby!

 

[PA Guns & Ammo]

Can anyone post a picture of the two different cylinders? I never had a chance to fire a 45ACP revolver and I was wondering how they work and what the cylinders looks like.

Thanks, James

 

[stiab]

I have fired my 625-6 MG without moon clips at least 100 times with factory ammo, and never had any problems with ignition or extraction. I take them out with my fingernails. Maybe I am just lucky.