Sunday Afternoon Sixgun Shenanigans (photos)

[Win38-55]

Well men, I've been wondering what the original load of 23 grains of black powder would do out an original S&W 2nd Model American Russian Model (chambered for the 44 Russian). Mike Venturino only put 19 grains of FFFg in his for velocity of 740 fps. I have a very non-traditional soft cast Elmer Keith bullet that weights 256 grains lubed and sized. For my first five rounds, I only put 16 grains of FFFg and fired them over the chronograph. Average velocity was 626 fps with an E.S. of 33 fps and an S.D. of 15 fps. That seemed to me to be a capacity load in my spanking new, never-before-fired Starline brass, but there was no compression of the powder. I headed back in the house and figured I'd see if I could get 18 grains into those once-fired cases. No problem. That load gave me 685 fps with an E.S. of 15 fps and an S.D. of 6 fps.

Now I got to wondering just how much powder I could squeeze into a spanking new case if I tried compressing it a bit and let the bullet set out. I loaded one round with 20 grains. No problem; lots of room to still set the bullet out. This one gave 692 fps; still mystified about that. Then I loaded 21 grains into a new case. This one round gave me 753 fps. I still had room to set the bullet out a bit more, so I loaded 22 grains of FFFg into three never-fired Starline cases. The bullets were sitting out a bit by now, as you can see in the photo below ...(the one on the left has 22 grains of powder and the one on the right has 18 grains) ...

I fired the three cartridges loaded with 22 grains, just one grain short of the original 23 grains, and chronographed the three bullets at 772 fps, 776 fps, and 791 fps, for an average of 780 fps. I would guess that 23 grains should put me right around 800 fps. Keep in mind, today's shooting was done out of an 8" barrel.

Loading up the old sixgun (my coat doesn't have wings, it was just windy) ....

Making smoke .....

The old sixgun after 15 rounds .... a bit covered in residue. It letters as having been shipped in 1873 ....

The backstop. Although I wasn't really aiming at anything on the block of wood, I was just aiming to shoot between the wires on the chronograph, 10 rounds went into about an inch and a half, with the other 5 rounds close. The wood was about 17 feet away. I find this old S&W, with its 8" barrel, remarkably easy to shoot accurately (at least for an old geezer like myself who is no great shakes with a sixgun).

Cleaning the old S&W afterwards ...

Conclusion: If I can stuff 22 grains of FFFg in spanking new Starline cases, I figure I should be able to put 23 grains into the slightly expanded fired cases if I don't do any sizing, which isn't necessary anyway, because the bullets are still a tight fit. I ran out of time to experiment further today, but I will be trying for 23 grains next time.

 

[Win38-55]

Well men, I've been wondering what the original load of 23 grains of black powder would do out an original S&W 2nd Model American Russian Model (chambered for the 44 Russian). Mike Venturino only put 19 grains of FFFg in his for velocity of 740 fps. I have a very non-traditional soft cast Elmer Keith bullet that weights 256 grains lubed and sized. For my first five rounds, I only put 16 grains of FFFg and fired them over the chronograph. Average velocity was 626 fps with an E.S. of 33 fps and an S.D. of 15 fps. That seemed to me to be a capacity load in my spanking new, never-before-fired Starline brass, but there was no compression of the powder. I headed back in the house and figured I'd see if I could get 18 grains into those once-fired cases. No problem. That load gave me 685 fps with an E.S. of 15 fps and an S.D. of 6 fps.

Now I got to wondering just how much powder I could squeeze into a spanking new case if I tried compressing it a bit and let the bullet set out. I loaded one round with 20 grains. No problem; lots of room to still set the bullet out. This one gave 692 fps; still mystified about that. Then I loaded 21 grains into a new case. This one round gave me 753 fps. I still had room to set the bullet out a bit more, so I loaded 22 grains of FFFg into three never-fired Starline cases. The bullets were sitting out a bit by now, as you can see in the photo below ...(the one on the left has 22 grains of powder and the one on the right has 18 grains) ...

I fired the three cartridges loaded with 22 grains, just one grain short of the original 23 grains, and chronographed the three bullets at 772 fps, 776 fps, and 791 fps, for an average of 780 fps. I would guess that 23 grains should put me right around 800 fps. Keep in mind, today's shooting was done out of an 8" barrel.

Loading up the old sixgun (my coat doesn't have wings, it was just windy) ....

Making smoke .....

The old sixgun after 15 rounds .... a bit covered in residue. It letters as having been shipped in 1873 ....

The backstop. Although I wasn't really aiming at anything on the block of wood, I was just aiming to shoot between the wires on the chronograph, 10 rounds went into about an inch and a half, with the other 5 rounds close. The wood was about 17 feet away. I find this old S&W, with its 8" barrel, remarkably easy to shoot accurately (at least for an old geezer like myself who is no great shakes with a sixgun).

Cleaning the old S&W afterwards ...

Conclusion: If I can stuff 22 grains of FFFg in spanking new Starline cases, I figure I should be able to put 23 grains into the slightly expanded fired cases if I don't do any sizing, which isn't necessary anyway, because the bullets are still a tight fit. I ran out of time to experiment further today, but I will be trying for 23 grains next time.

 

[danski]

Weren't the 19th Century cartridges balloon head which had/have more capacity than a modern casing?

Was this true of the Schofield round as well?

I believe the .45 Colts of the 19th Century had/have three or four grains more capacity than modern casings using a 250-grain bullet.

 

[Win38-55]

You are right. They would have been able to seat their bullets to the proper depth. Modern brass has less capacity, so to make up for that, one has to seat the bullets a little further out. Still the lube groove is covered and there is enough bite on the band to crimp it in position, once I've settled on a depth. Interestingly, the flat noses of the bullets were still inside the cylinder.

 

[mm6mm6]

Win38-55, nice photo essay! I felt like I was right there with you. I could feel the sun and the wind and even smell the smoke! Thanks for sharing, that was fun!

 

[BRush]

Win38-55
Nice work and photos. That is a nice way to spend an afternoon.

 

[BruceHMX]

I have never been a fan of older S&W's. This thread changed my mind

Congrats on totally enjoying an older gun. While many of us gloat over shooting a pre war 2nd Model or Heavy Duty you are breaking out the real guns.

 

[Win38-55]

Originally posted by BruceHMX:
I have never been a fan of older S&W's. This thread changed my mind

Congrats on totally enjoying an older gun. While many of us gloat over shooting a pre war 2nd Model or Heavy Duty you are breaking out the real guns.

Bruce, better be careful. Once you start shooting these survivors of the Old West, you may really get hooked.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Thanks for the report with the photos. Great ol' revolver you have there. One of the prettiest Smith & Wesson models to me. It's nice to see that it can still turn in an accurate performance. All things considered, for practical self defense with a handgun, there's probably less practical difference in your old .44 Russian and the latest high capacity "création hors de plastique" then most modern handgunners are willing to admit.

 

[Win38-55]

Originally posted by bmcgilvray: It's nice to see that it can still turn in an accurate performance. All things considered, for practical self defense with a handgun, there's probably less practical difference in your old .44 Russian and the latest high capacity "création hors de plastique" then most modern handgunners are willing to admit.

I've only shot one five-shot group at 25 yards with this old sixgun, but the 25 yard, five-shot group was 2 & 5/8". Not bad for this vintage S&W.

 

[semperfi71]

Great post, great gun. Enjoyed it.

 

[Tijeras_Slim]

Great pics.

Shooting a classic Smith on your own land. The American Dream doesn't get better than that.

 

[MikeyL]

Slim: +1!

MikeyL
S&WCA #2010

 

[tipoc]

Nice post, nice work.

tipoc

 

[Freischütz]

Have you done any additional work with 5744? The posts on Leverguns made me wonder if it was such a good choice.

 

[glypnir]

Shoot em if you got em, I always say.

 

[Win38-55]

Originally posted by Freischütz:
Have you done any additional work with 5744? The posts on Leverguns made me wonder if it was such a good choice.

I've put several hundred rounds through my original NM#3 using my 5744 load. It is a capacity load and gives identical ballistics to 22 gains of FFFg. I've been measuring the length of the top strap (by removing the cylinder, closing the action, and measuring the distance from the entrance of the forcing cone to the rear face of the frame). Thus far, I've not been able to detect any stretching at all. I will continue to use the 5744 in my NM#3, measuring carefully as I go. I think two things are very important to avoid: 1) never use fast powders like Unique and 2) never use hard cast bullets. When any bullet hits the lands of the rifling, there is a secondary pressure spike as it momentarily slows. A hard cast bullet will slow more than a soft cast bullet (I'm using almost pure lead) resulting in a higher pressure spike at that point. At that point, the bullet has not yet cleared the cylinder, so no gas can escape out the gap. For a fraction of a second, you have essentially a very powerful piston exerting a forward force on the barrel and a rearward force on the back face of the frame. This is the only moment I can see that will stretch the top strap. When the bullet has not yet reached the lands of the rifling, there is no axial pressure on the top strap, and once the bullet has cleared the cylinder, the pressure drops sharply due to escaping gases through the gap. So the stretching must occur when a hard cast bullet, powered by a too fast powder, hits the lands.

Having found that the 5744 load seems to be fine thus far, I am beginning to wonder if it isn't too slow. The black powder pressure curve is more closely matched by Blue Dot or the slower 2400. I do have a load using 2400, but my concern with that is the E.S. Black powder loads give me a very low E.S., but 2400 gives me pretty high E.S., which I do not like. I have not tried Blue Dot. My 5744 capacity load gives a low E.S., similar to FFFg. Thus far, I have not found a better smokeless load than 5744. But I really enjoy using FFFg in my 2nd Model American and probably will not be using smokeless in this one.

 

[Dale53]

I have done quite a lot of Black Powder Cartridge shooting with a .45 Colt (Ruger Bisley Vaquero) and a Lyman 452664 Cowboy Bullet. Lube is important (actually critical)and I use Emmert's Home Mix (works just like SPG Commercial lube).

I fill the case to the point that the bullet compresses the powder 1/16" when seating. I crimp in the crimp groove. You can vary the pressure and velocity by the granulation and brand of black powder. Elephant (there is some still around) 2F is the slowest I used, then 3F, then Goex 2f,3f, and then Swiss 2F and fastest of all 3F (AND the most recoil).

Black powder is a perfectly practical modern day powder. Fouling will eventually shut the revolver down (mine fouls the cylinder pin and interferes with the cylinder moving - I get 75 shots before needing cleaning). Each revolver is a law unitself regarding required cleaning. Applying STP or Rig on the center pin liberally helps to control this fouling.

Good luck and lots of fun!

Dale53

 

[Win38-55]

Interesting info and experience, Dale. I use SPG for the lube. It does tend to make the residue on the outside of the gun a bit mucky, but easy to wipe off. I finally finished my 45 ACP reloading this evening, so can get to loading up 50 rounds of Goex FFFg 44 Russian. I am very interested to find out how many rounds I can fire out the six gun without fouling problems. After 15 rounds on Sunday afternoon, there didn't seem to be any sign of fouling in the bore or cylinders, but there was some lube build up around the outside of the forcing cone. The design of this old 1872 manufactured revolver appears to keep the cylinder pin well shielded. I did blow in the bore after each 5 shots. Didn't taste all that good ... I'll have to invest in a short blow tube. I'd say the bullet compressed the powder at least 1/16". I was surprised at the sharp crack of the report .... I was expecting more of a boom. The flattened primers using Goex FFFg indicates that black powder generates significanty more pressure than my 5744 loads. I'd have to confess that after only one afternoon shooting BP, I can hardly wait to do it again. There's just something about the smoke or something.

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, are you using a drop tube to charge the cases with powder? If not, that'll usually let you get a little more in there.

Interesting thread.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.