Super Vel Ammo..........
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thomashoward
Member
Early 9mm 90 gr JHP. cost a whopping $8.10
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii406/thomashoward_photos/IMG_1947.jpg
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii406/thomashoward_photos/IMG_1947.jpg
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george minze
Member
Sort of sounds like some of the stories coming out about some newer +P+ rounds. Con Bon did change the way pistol ammo was made and marketed. Like some ammo now, it certainly had it's detractors. hot loads...ie Some Cor Bon, and other high pressure rounds. I guess it depends on what you are shooting it with. Super Vel was popular in the late 60's and early 70's for LE. confusing then and confusing now.
Lee Jurras revolutionized pistol ammo with his SuperVel line. Yes the original was "hot" but it was also within accepted pressures. It was loaded to the top and slightly undersized jacketed bullets were used -that served to keep pressures under the ceiling with charges that would qualify as "overmax" with larger dimensioned projectiles. However, since cylinder mouths,forcing cone and barrel dimensions vary widely it should be no surprise that SOME guns gave evidence of overpressure rounds.
crsides
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
i went looking at home for some 38 wadcutters to load a few weeks ago, and found a box and a half of 44 Super Vel 180gr bullets.
If this stuff is collector status, let me know.
Charlie
If this stuff is collector status, let me know.
Charlie
Gunsmithattheguncloset
Member
super vel
Ok so how do the original "hot" super-vel loads in 38 spl compare with the current crop of 38 spl +P+ loadings? Enquiring minds want to know!
Trey
Ok so how do the original "hot" super-vel loads in 38 spl compare with the current crop of 38 spl +P+ loadings? Enquiring minds want to know!
Trey
george minze
Member
Your not kidding! I hear so many conflicting reports about super hot ammo I am confused. With all the expert commentary and knowledge on this forum somebody has to have the real facts about the super hot stuff. Good or Bad. Why do some manufactures state do not shoot +P+ ammo. What does it affect? Is there a difference between forged, cast, and polymer frames as to shooting the real hot stuff and what are the pressure differences between different ammo. Surely somebody has the real skinny on this. I have heard (not experienced that some ammo is just bad on some guns) Practicing for police work with regular pressure ammo and then carrying real hot stuff must have a relation to different results from practice to real shooting situations. I realize the adrenalin makes a difference but range scores then shouldn't be so different. Frankly I don't know and would like to hear from somebody that has the facts....thanks
In response to the prior post of Mr. Minze - As a full time range officer with Federal agency, we bought S/Vel by the truck load. Both 110gr .38 special and 110gr .357 mag. Guns used were M15 with 4 inch bbl, and M19 with 2 1/2 inch bbl. We had no gun problems with excessive wear and/or malfunctions. These guns shot thousands of rounds per year. We could not continue with the .357 due to the short ejector rod on the 2 1/2 inch models. All agents were issued .38 JHP (110gr) which was potent enough. If Treasury had bought the 3 inch bbl, there would have been no problems with ejection issues on the M19. We also used this ammo in training with the M60, 2 inch. Did not hurt the M60, however I did see barrels that were almost worn smooth from extensive firing. Since we were training new recruits, it was a tough assignment to get them used to S/Vel type recoil in a short period of time. It was too much for most rookies, and the women had a real hard time with it. Experienced shooters could adapt in the time allocated. I would not recommend using it in any gun that is not steel frame or stainless - this is the minimum required. Overall ammo - I'd say A+ for S/Vel.
rburg
Member
I've still got some from "back in the day", meaning early 1970s. It was like gold back then. Being newly married, I was poor by definition. But with a rookie cop across the hall, we managed to scrape together enough money (read hide from wife) to buy a box of both 110gr offerings. The soft point and the hollow point in 357. We felt we were owning and carrying a nuclear arsenal. We felt rich.
When you folks elected the current crook, the ammo market went wild. My gun show partner came to the next show, then vanished. He was on a buying spree. He had no clue about Super-Vel, but a fair number of private tables and a few gun shops emptied their closets and were selling anything that even looked like ammo. When I saw what he was finding, I went out and bought a bunch, too.
I even found a couple of the "ammo wallets" they used to sell. They had no idea how hard those were to find, so they sold them cheap, like in the price range half empty boxes sold for. I was on a buying mission.
I feel ashamed that I was only finding and buying .38 or .357s. I now wish I'd have had the foresight to land a few boxes of .380, just as an investment.
We ended up shooting some of our ammo back in the later 1970s. As I recall, it was every bit as accurate as anything the other makers had. Point of impact was different from 158gr 357s, but you'd expect it to be. It was my first real experience with light fast bullets printing lower than heavy ones. Significantly lower.
When you folks elected the current crook, the ammo market went wild. My gun show partner came to the next show, then vanished. He was on a buying spree. He had no clue about Super-Vel, but a fair number of private tables and a few gun shops emptied their closets and were selling anything that even looked like ammo. When I saw what he was finding, I went out and bought a bunch, too.
I even found a couple of the "ammo wallets" they used to sell. They had no idea how hard those were to find, so they sold them cheap, like in the price range half empty boxes sold for. I was on a buying mission.
I feel ashamed that I was only finding and buying .38 or .357s. I now wish I'd have had the foresight to land a few boxes of .380, just as an investment.
We ended up shooting some of our ammo back in the later 1970s. As I recall, it was every bit as accurate as anything the other makers had. Point of impact was different from 158gr 357s, but you'd expect it to be. It was my first real experience with light fast bullets printing lower than heavy ones. Significantly lower.
george minze
Member
Back in the 60's I was a Cincinnati cop I had started with Covington Ky as a dog handler. Cincinnati of course payed better and had a good range program. However those Covington Cops had no restrictions on what they carried (revolver) and they had one heck of a action filled job. Covington and Newport were where the action was. A lot of other things also. but you got a baptism of rough and tumble action and the weapons carried were a primer on what was hot and what was not. I have to admit I enjoyed the place. Money didn't even come close to Cincinnati then. But diffidently more fun. When my dog got hip displeasure I was looking and Cincinnati was looking for shooters. I guess those area's have become civilized but damn for a guy just out of the Marines it was one heck of a place to start.
Lumpy Pockets
Member
I have a couple boxes of Jurras 148 grain HBWC reloads. any value there?
Texas1941
Member
Working from memory
Ever since this thread started, I've been looking for my range books from the late '60s and I'm darned if I can find them. A lot of things got displaced/moved around during Ike, and my notes from '68-'72 are AWOL.
I thought SuperVel was as close as you could come to a death ray. I bought 9mm and 38/357 when ever I could (that is, when I could find it and had the money to pay for it).
Some of the bullet weights were unusual, like 112gr 9mm and 137gr 357.
In those days, I had 3 9mms, a 39-2, P-35, and a P-38. IIRC, the 39 would run OK with the 90 and 112 grs, but only from down loaded mags. If you tried to feed from a full mag a six oclock jam was certain (as opposed to just likely).
The P-35, mid '60s production, wouldn't cycle more than 3-4 round before producing a 12 oclock jam. And of course, the P-38 was a single shot.
The 38 and 357 were not match ammo, but out of my 2" Combat Masterpiece I seem to remember groups around 3-4" from sandbags @ 25yds. I think the 357 did about the same from a Highway Patrolman.
SuperVel was assumed to be very high velocity ammunition and there is no doubt in my mind that it was faster than anything else at the time. But no one had a chrono, so all we had to go by was what we saw in the gun rags, and very few of the gun writers of the day had any more hard information than the rest of us.
Ever since this thread started, I've been looking for my range books from the late '60s and I'm darned if I can find them. A lot of things got displaced/moved around during Ike, and my notes from '68-'72 are AWOL.
I thought SuperVel was as close as you could come to a death ray. I bought 9mm and 38/357 when ever I could (that is, when I could find it and had the money to pay for it).
Some of the bullet weights were unusual, like 112gr 9mm and 137gr 357.
In those days, I had 3 9mms, a 39-2, P-35, and a P-38. IIRC, the 39 would run OK with the 90 and 112 grs, but only from down loaded mags. If you tried to feed from a full mag a six oclock jam was certain (as opposed to just likely).
The P-35, mid '60s production, wouldn't cycle more than 3-4 round before producing a 12 oclock jam. And of course, the P-38 was a single shot.
The 38 and 357 were not match ammo, but out of my 2" Combat Masterpiece I seem to remember groups around 3-4" from sandbags @ 25yds. I think the 357 did about the same from a Highway Patrolman.
SuperVel was assumed to be very high velocity ammunition and there is no doubt in my mind that it was faster than anything else at the time. But no one had a chrono, so all we had to go by was what we saw in the gun rags, and very few of the gun writers of the day had any more hard information than the rest of us.
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Wallets
rburg wrote:
I even found a couple of the "ammo wallets" they used to sell. They had no idea how hard those were to find, so they sold them cheap, like in the price range half empty boxes sold for. I was on a buying mission.
So, what do the wallets bring? I came across 2 of them (1 .357 150 JHP and 1 .357 110 JSP) in a backwater bait & tackle last year. They are H&H production.
I also have 2 boxes of Fon du lac production 9mm 115gr. JHP I picked up in the late 80s.
I do not collect ammo (other than individual representative cartridges), I shoot it and reload the empties. If I hang onto this stuff I will eventually shoot it at a tin can or a porcupine, so I'd much rather trade it for an equal amount of that new wimpy stuff from Buffalo Bore or Grizzly and give a more enlightened soul the pride of owning a piece of history.
rburg wrote:
I even found a couple of the "ammo wallets" they used to sell. They had no idea how hard those were to find, so they sold them cheap, like in the price range half empty boxes sold for. I was on a buying mission.
So, what do the wallets bring? I came across 2 of them (1 .357 150 JHP and 1 .357 110 JSP) in a backwater bait & tackle last year. They are H&H production.
I also have 2 boxes of Fon du lac production 9mm 115gr. JHP I picked up in the late 80s.
I do not collect ammo (other than individual representative cartridges), I shoot it and reload the empties. If I hang onto this stuff I will eventually shoot it at a tin can or a porcupine, so I'd much rather trade it for an equal amount of that new wimpy stuff from Buffalo Bore or Grizzly and give a more enlightened soul the pride of owning a piece of history.
Good memories for me.
I'm bumping this thread just because I love all the old ammo threads.I have very fond memories of the old cops and the 1970's. Go figure. Nostolgia is a very weird thing.I remember Vietnam, oil embargos, Jimmy Carter, disco and stagflation as well, but that decade still has a weird rosey hue to it. Memories of a kid I guess.
I'm 42 and I've been a cop for ten years. But my dad was a cop for twenty-four years "back in the day" (1970-1994) and I remember those days. He started in 1970 with a Model 10. A new administration switched to the Model 28 in 73. The Model 65 came along in 79 and finally the 4586 in 1991.
My father still has several boxes of Super Vel 110 grain 38, 110 grain 357 magnum and the Winchester "law enforcement only" 110 grain SJHP +P+ sitting in his storage cabinet. All left over from when it was issued to him. Great stuff. Regardless of it actual performance it's great stuff to me. It takes me back to my childhood.
Old gruff cops with big heavy S&W Model 28's pulling down their belts, leather saps, gigantic flashlights that took twelve D cells (I'm exagerating), leather dress shoes with heavy rubber soles put on by a local shoe shop, huge patrol cars with V8 engines and a single light dome on top, big cluncky radar units and brown "night sticks" that seemed to be twelve feet long to a seven year old.
As you probably gathered from my recollection "Big and Huge" is a major factor. My father was/is a Vietnam veteran, but several of his fellow officers back then were WWII and Korean vets. I remember those guys sitting around trading war stories. I would sit for hours listening to them. Many of the stories were probably larger than life but I didn't care.
I love the old Super Vel ammo (and it's red and yellow box) for what it represents to me. I've exchanged e-mails in the past with Mr. Juras and he got a kick out of my nostolgia. Thanks guys for everything.
Just thought I would present a different take on this thread. For you veterans of the day it's just old ammo that has been passed over by technology, but for me it's part of my youth.
Great stuff.
I'm bumping this thread just because I love all the old ammo threads.I have very fond memories of the old cops and the 1970's. Go figure. Nostolgia is a very weird thing.I remember Vietnam, oil embargos, Jimmy Carter, disco and stagflation as well, but that decade still has a weird rosey hue to it. Memories of a kid I guess.
I'm 42 and I've been a cop for ten years. But my dad was a cop for twenty-four years "back in the day" (1970-1994) and I remember those days. He started in 1970 with a Model 10. A new administration switched to the Model 28 in 73. The Model 65 came along in 79 and finally the 4586 in 1991.
My father still has several boxes of Super Vel 110 grain 38, 110 grain 357 magnum and the Winchester "law enforcement only" 110 grain SJHP +P+ sitting in his storage cabinet. All left over from when it was issued to him. Great stuff. Regardless of it actual performance it's great stuff to me. It takes me back to my childhood.
Old gruff cops with big heavy S&W Model 28's pulling down their belts, leather saps, gigantic flashlights that took twelve D cells (I'm exagerating), leather dress shoes with heavy rubber soles put on by a local shoe shop, huge patrol cars with V8 engines and a single light dome on top, big cluncky radar units and brown "night sticks" that seemed to be twelve feet long to a seven year old.
As you probably gathered from my recollection "Big and Huge" is a major factor. My father was/is a Vietnam veteran, but several of his fellow officers back then were WWII and Korean vets. I remember those guys sitting around trading war stories. I would sit for hours listening to them. Many of the stories were probably larger than life but I didn't care.
I love the old Super Vel ammo (and it's red and yellow box) for what it represents to me. I've exchanged e-mails in the past with Mr. Juras and he got a kick out of my nostolgia. Thanks guys for everything.
Just thought I would present a different take on this thread. For you veterans of the day it's just old ammo that has been passed over by technology, but for me it's part of my youth.
Great stuff.
Great post, checkman.
The picture of the box of Super Vel ammo I posted a couple of posts back was my dad's. As a kid developing an interest in guns, I'd go through his guns & ammo, disassemble & clean the guns, and he'd tell me about them.
He's gone now, but I'm reminded of him when I see some of his old ammo (and guns).
They have a pretty good bite, much more so than the Remington 125 +P I've tried in my no dash Model 36, but not nearly as spicy as those old Norma rounds.
Super Vel= Serrano peppers
Remington +P = Jalapeno
Norma= Habanero
The box of them I have carries a $7.65 price tag and were purchased in the Detroit area in 1972. Your are probably pretty close in age.
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