SW 317 .22 Jamming Problems

[sally]

Hi folks -- just got a brand new 317 revolver and it jams up after firing one or two rounds. It looks like the bullets "bulge" and jam up the cylinder. SW replaced the cylinder but it still reacted the same way: jam after one or two rounds fired.

The dealer replaced the gun with a different 317 and it (the second gun) did the exact same thing. I tried it with CCI's, Blazer, Federals, and Winchester Wildcats. The Wildcats actually worked in the sense that I could fire all 8 rounds, but after several cycles, I can no longer extract the spent rounds. The gun is now sitting in its case with the 8 spent rounds in it and I can't get them extracted at all (maybe with a hammer?)

Any idea what may be going on here? Both guns exhibiting a jamming problem with three different types of ammo and the one type of ammo that does work eventually starts jamming when attempting to extract.

I called SW last week and they said they would send out an envelope to ship the second gun back to them but so far no response from them. Gonna call again, but just wondered what anyone else's experience with the 317 were.

 

[Steve_NEPhila]

There are a few things to entertain here before getting closer to the answer. I have questions:

Did you clean the revolver before shooting it?

Was the cylinder free from excess oil and just clean shiny metal before firing?

Did the extractor function properly before firing?

Can you post some pictures?

This is just the tip of the iceberg. I have shot a 317 and it was a pleasure. I suspect you may be contending with something other then a manufacturing defect, but I may be wrong.

 

[sally]

317 Jamming

Howdy -- I had heard good things about the 317 too. Here are the answers to your questions:
a) yes, I cleaned the gun before firing
b) yes the gun was clean and shiny
c) yes the extractor worked fine when empty and before shooting anything
d) I'll post a photo of the bulging cases

What is really strange is that this happened on two different guns.

 

[BUFF]

.22 rimfire ammo is pretty dirty when fired, and just about every double action .22 LR revolver I have owned (which is a fair bunch, Colts as well as S&W's) gets more and more difficult to eject the empties as I shoot it. It even gets to where it takes a bit of finger pressure to seat the new rounds fully.

 

[rck281]

I have a friend that had a 617 that did the same thing. He returned it to the factory who replaced the cylinder which did the exact same thing. The cases would bulge near the rim which looked like the extractor star was machined improperly. Without a solution, he sold the gun.

 

[Roca]

+1 on what Buff said. My 317 will start getting hard to extract after about 30 rounds...by 50 rounds its almost unworkable. So I typically let it sit and cool and then wipe under the extractor and over the recoil shield with a CLP soaked rag. It then runs fine for another 30 rounds or so. I have come to consider this normal operating procedure for this gun.

I did have a spent case bulge enough to tie up the cylinder once. The bulge was at the primer end of the case directly across from the firing pin. This locked the cylinder up tight. I quit using cheap Remington bulk ammo and its never recurred.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your problem. Any chance to see some pictures of the bulged cases?

Would definitely make it easier to help with figuring the problem you are having.

 

[tall gunner]

Here is Jeff Quinn's review of the 317 from 2002 in which he states that he fired "several hundred rounds" of different ammo through the gun with no malfunction.
Smith & Wesson Model 317 .22 Kit Gun

 

[K1500]

I once had a few bricks of Federal from a bad lot. The cases were covered in a waxy/gummy lube and were almost impossible to extract as they would glue themselves into the chambers of my 617. I resorted to putting a handful of cartridges into an empty ammo box and hitting them with a shot of WD-40. That did the trick like magic, but I always shot the entire handful up for fear of the WD-40 creeping into the cases over time and killing the powder/primers.

Since you have tried a number of brands it is probably not the wax problem. I would also suggest some underlying problem beyond the cylinder, but it is strange it happened to two different guns.

 

[sally]

317 jamming - photos posted

Yah, two guns with the same problem is weird. I posted a few photos of the spent Federal shells, the breech of the gun, and the cylinder with the clogged Winchesters.

They are also posted at Flickr: cobinrox's Photostream

spent_federals_bulge | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

cyl_w_spent_ammo | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This one is the most interesting. Is it normal for the breech to be so beat-up looking? Also I can actually see imprints (?) of the shell casings on the breech.

breech | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cobinrox/5017575869/

Finally, this is a video showing the "slack" on the extractor rod:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cobinrox
/5019814495/

 

[sally]

Quote from an engineer friend of mine when he saw the photos:

"Yikes!

Two bad things jump out at me from the picture…the powder burns around the firing pin indicate the casings are actually rupturing…not just distorting…there should be little to no powder burns there, especially in a .22 using storebought standard ammo. Unsupported casings are failing…you could get bits in the back of your hand, in your eye, or hitting people around you on the firing line.

The shiny scar where the cylinder center pin has wandered in a crooked line across the backplate tells me our suspicions on the cylinder pin being not properly supported are confirmed…the end of the pin should track in a smooth arc to the center hole…there can be some wear there, but this is too much and not in the right place. The pin is shifting or bending when you close the cylinder. A few other nicks on that back plate also indicate the cylinder is not being properly supported or aligned…it should not be scraping the back plate the way it appears to be.

Send that photo to Smith/Wesson (head gunsmith, warranty department, or someone who understands legal liability), and tell them it’s clearly a manufacturing defect and a safety issue…it needs repair or replacement under warranty.
If the cylinder goes enough out of alignment and the gun fires, bits of lead or brass can go in all directions. "

 

[Roca]

sally,

Thanks for posting those pics. Incredible.

Mine has the same casing marks on the recoil shield/breech but none of the odd scuffing and scrapping. And my spent cases have never looked like that.

I agree with your engineer friend, you need to have S&W fix that. As for two guns in a row from the same dealer having the issue, they must have been from the same production line batch. Amazingly bad luck, but hopefully good luck from now on.

 

[scooter123]

I wouldn't be concerned about the powder debris on the recoil shield, my 617 does the same thing and it functions perfectly. I suspect it's nothing more than blowby down the case walls.

IMO the bulged cases tell the tale, the cuts in the extractor are oversize and not supporting the casehead properly.

 

[Stainz]

I hate to hear this re the current 317's - I thought one was in my future. My 4" 617 and 5" 63 were both bought new in the last two years - and have been delightfully troublefree and reliable, both with lighter hammer & rebound springs. Their ammo has been the bulk packed el-cheapo Federals from WallyWorld. In one spree, I tried to see how long they could go without cleaning - the 63 made it to over 500 rounds and the 617 made it longer - before I gave in and cleaned them. Yes, they are SS - and easier/more forgiving to clean than Al. Still, 30-50 rounds - that's 4-6 cylinders full - good grief!

Sorry for your problems. If S&W would get off their butts re the 3" HiViz equipped 63 they've advertised since winter and make the thing, it'd be a winner, even if it is nearly twice the weight of the 3" 317K. The 2" 632, also new in the 2010 catalog, is in the same boat - hype only, no production. The 317, of course, is available.

Stainz

 

[majex45]

Double trouble

It looks to me like you have two problems:
The extractor star cutouts are oversize and not supporting the case head just in front of the rim.
There is a headspace problem. It looks like the case heads are bulging out to fill the gap. (Although this may be an artifact of the close-up lens).
The extractor star moving like in the video is normal if on the high side of the tolerance. It is locked into alignment by the pins (in older guns) and by the eccentric cutout (in newer guns).
Try turning the extractor rod when the star is in the firing position, there should be almost no movement then.

 

[sally]

Update: just got the gun back from S&W. They swapped out the cylinder. I can now shoot a few cycles (full 8 rounds) with the Federals and Winchesters but the CCI's jam. After about 100 rounds, the Federals jam and the extraction of the Winchesters becomes very difficult (I have to pull them out with my fingernails).

I also notice that i have to physically push the ammo into some (but not all) of the cylinders to seat them fully. I was wondering if that is considered normal?

 

[Plottman Pops]

Sally, it is not normal to have to push ammo in ,it should drop in like any other.
My wife has a 317 and shoots it often normally 250 to 300 at a session and has never had a problem and its never been cleaned except between sessions.
I hope you can get the problem resolved soon it's a fun little gun.

 

[scooter123]

So far I've run 2 different ammo's through my 617, Winchester Xpert HV and Federal Bulk.

With the Winchester after 50 to 75 rounds downrange fully seating a cartridge in the chambers start to require a firm push. Also when this happens the misfire rate skyrockets. Obviously a result of a round not being fully seated. Cleaning the gun is also 1 hour task an minimum, however I do admit to liking to have the 617 looking pristine.

With the Federal bulk, I have yet to experience any issues seating rounds in the chambers, they just fall in. However, I normally only run 50 to 100 rounds thru my 617 at each range outing. Cleanup is also much much easier.

Obviously the copper washed Federal is a much cleaner shooting ammunition. The only downside is the 617 will group 2 inches at 100 feet with the Winchester and with the Federal it groups about 2.5 inches at the same distance.

Bottomline, different ammunitions will have different levels of fouling and in the 22 caliber revolvers a fouled cylinder will cause problems.

IMO you have 2 options to address this.

One is to purchase a pistol brush for a 22 and pack it in your range bag. It only takes a few minutes to dry brush the chambers so they'll free up. If you want to have them well cleaned, get a small bottle of M Pro 7 and do a quick brush followed up with a bore snake rund through each chamber.

The second option is to find a relatively clean shooting ammo that doesn't require cleaning as frequently.

Now, for Sally's issue. I hate to say it but I think that another trip to S&W may be necessary. Because this has been a continuing problem I suggest that you take a somewhat different tack. Ask them to test any repair with a minimum of 100 rounds downrange and offer to provide the ammunition for this test. Then choose the most balky ammo you've found to send with the gun for the test. Perhaps this will get them to put enough ammunition through your 317 to see the problems you've been having. Previously I suspect they've just run one or two clinders through it and haven't seen what you've been dealing with.

 

[Roca]

Update: just got the gun back from S&W. They swapped out the cylinder. I can now shoot a few cycles (full 8 rounds) with the Federals and Winchesters but the CCI's jam. After about 100 rounds, the Federals jam and the extraction of the Winchesters becomes very difficult (I have to pull them out with my fingernails).

I also notice that i have to physically push the ammo into some (but not all) of the cylinders to seat them fully. I was wondering if that is considered normal?

This sounds about the same as mine if I do not swab the cylinder chambers out and wipe under the extractor star after about 30-40 rounds. Only takes about 2 minutes at the range. I never shoot Winchester ammo because of the extraction issues.

 

[cp1969]

I think if I were sally, I'd cut my losses and ask for a full price refund, then go look for something else.

 

[sally]

Called S&W and they are sending another pre-paid envelope to send the gun back to the factory. They implied that it should not jam up nor get so sticky after so few rounds and they seemed kind of dumb-founded at the extractor rod jamming up and that not all of the ammo sinks into the chambers without some push. I'm heading out to the range one more time and will re-clean and then count how many rounds I can get thru before issues start cropping up so I can relay that back to S&W when I send the thing back again. By the way, the shells are still bulging, but I don't know now whether that is normal or not. At first I thought that was the reason for all of the problems, but now I don't know if that is a cause, an effect, or just normal behavior.
Anything I should take note of or try out this weekend (I'd rather than do the cleaning thing at 20-30 rounds since S&W seemed to think that was not needed and I've read where people have gotten several hundred rounds through cleanly)?

By the way - S&W said that I could request a replacement or refund but it would be at their discretion whether they would honor that request or just try another repair of some sort. I'd like to stick with the 317 because it fits my hand well and is light weight and it took me a long time to research and find it.