SW 317 .22 Jamming Problems

[TSQUARED]

Have you shot the same ammo in another gun? All the 22 revo;lvers I owned both Colt & S&W will expereince stiff extractrion after firing ca 75 to 100 rounds. The 22 LR is quite dirty when fired and one does get buildup of residue in the chamber. I only use SV ammo in my revolvers but have never experienced the level of difficulty nor the bulged cases shown in these photos.

 

[Roca]

Called S&W and they are sending another pre-paid envelope to send the gun back to the factory. They implied that it should not jam up nor get so sticky after so few rounds and they seemed kind of dumb-founded at the extractor rod jamming up and that not all of the ammo sinks into the chambers without some push. I'm heading out to the range one more time and will re-clean and then count how many rounds I can get thru before issues start cropping up so I can relay that back to S&W when I send the thing back again. By the way, the shells are still bulging, but I don't know now whether that is normal or not. At first I thought that was the reason for all of the problems, but now I don't know if that is a cause, an effect, or just normal behavior.
Anything I should take note of or try out this weekend (I'd rather than do the cleaning thing at 20-30 rounds since S&W seemed to think that was not needed and I've read where people have gotten several hundred rounds through cleanly)?

By the way - S&W said that I could request a replacement or refund but it would be at their discretion whether they would honor that request or just try another repair of some sort. I'd like to stick with the 317 because it fits my hand well and is light weight and it took me a long time to research and find it.

Very interesting. If S&W think a 317 should go through 100 rounds with no cleaning and no sticky ejection, then maybe my 317 has always had an issue as well. As dirty as most 22LR is, I would think the stickiness would be normal. But maybe I have set my expectations too low.

Thanks for keeping us updated Sally. I am now really interested in how well S&W can back up their 100 round no-stick claim.

 

[HEADKNOCKER]

I "HAD" a 317 No Dash that would get carboned up with rubbish after 4-5 cylinders full of ammo..
But after cleaning it was fine again..
I never used a brass brush on the cylinder being it was aluminum, only a plastic brush & Hoppes #9 on a Q-Tip..
I wonder how you are cleaning the cylinders bores??
Just a thought..
Good Luck getting it fixed or replaced again..

 

[sally]

@TSquared: no, I have not shot the ammo through another gun, this is the only gun that I have, so was not sure what to expect or what is normal.
@Roca: I'm wondering the same, there was a nice review written up on the 317 awhile back where I believe the reviewer said that he had shot several hundred rounds through it.
@HeadKnocker: I'm using a slip of fabric with solvent as a cleaner.

 

[kimber 22]

Called S&W and they are sending another pre-paid envelope to send the gun back to the factory.

Did you/are you sending some of the spent brass back with the revolver?

I've seen a lot of revolvers get a little "sticky" when trying to eject spent rounds, including my S&W 17 and 617. Like others have already said, it gets worse the more you shoot, and pulling a boresnake through the cylinder holes or wiping down at the range can help. On the other hand, I can usually shoot a box of Mini-Mags without much trouble.

 

[FRAN357]

If this was my gun i would send it back to smith. Attn Gene in the p.c. dept.Ask him to check out the cyl. our if he could roll it out.He did this for me years assago and my gun is a o.k

 

[cjwils]

I have fired a gazillion rounds through several S&W 38 and 357 revolvers without one single jam or misfire. (I have also used a Taurus 44 special revolver and a Colt Python 357 revolver without one single jam or misfire.) However, my new S&W 317 cal 22 revolver jams, or binds up, or has difficult extraction quite often. (I also tried a Taurus model 94 cal 22 revolver with similar, but worse, problems.) This tells me that either something is wrong with today's 22 rimfire ammo, or today's gun makers need to learn that designing a revolver for 22 rimfire is different from designing a revolver for centerfire ammo.

I see that relatively big flakes of unburned powder remain in the cylinder of my 317. That makes me think that 22 rimfire ammo is designed for complete burning in longer barrels. Those unburned flakes seem to cause the cases to bind up sometimes. I have wondered if doing a very quick clean out of the chambers in the cylinder with a q-tip would help. Maybe that is needed after firing every couple of cylinder's full. I am going to try that next time.

 

[2krkrider]

I have both a 317 and 63. The 63 has never had problems after one visit back to S&W to fix an incorrectly installed barrel. The 317 will get a little sticky to eject after about a hundred rounds. I found the hotter the 317 gets, the more sticky it is to eject. When I put the 317 down to cool off and shoot the 63 for a few hundred rounds or so, until it is too hot to handle, the 317 has cooled down and works fine. In other words, stainless 63 gets hot and works fine, alloy 317 get hot and then is sticky to eject. I think thermal expansion of the 317 alloy is causing the stickness. This isn't a problem because for the 317 self defense back up gun, the first eight are all really care about. The 63 is a range gun and I only stop shooting it because it is too hot to touch.

 

[HAM]

The following comments (concerning tight .22 chambers) were copied from another forum and I thought they could be helpful here. The author is an incredibly knowledgeable gunsmith. I hope I have not broken any forum rules by posting this information here. My own M34-1 suffers from this problem as well.

Regards,
HAM



Enlarging the chamber just makes things worse. The more the brass expands, the harder it will be to extract and you could even risk case ruptures. I have a S&W Mod 18 with chambers so tight, I have to literally force the 22s in place, even when the cylinder is sparkling clean. After they are fired, the spent cases extract with ease. Some of my Ruger Single-Sixes are like yours and also eject a little hard. As long as I can push the case out with the ejector rod, I'm not going to make any modifications.

You have one of two conditions ... both being quite common in Ruger SAs. First, do a close inspection of the chambers and look for machine marks that almost resemble threads. When a round is fired, the case swells up and literally locks into the chamber's "threads". If you see "threads" try some 400 grit wet or dry sandpaper rolled up on a rod. Instead of a rotary motion, go in and out like ... well you know. This will remove some of the "tread effect" without enlarging the chamber too much and will help extraction. Do all 6 holes and make them as uniform as possible but don't over do it.

Second ... The wall of a 22 case should be straight .. no taper at all. If the chamber is also "straight" and smooth, the cases will extract just fine. The following condition is not repairable without installing a new cylinder (if bad enough). It is a condition caused by the reamers being worn when the chamber was made. If the chamber has a reverse taper where the chamber diameter is larger at the case mouth than in the middle, there's no way a case will eject easily. When a round is fired, the mouth of the case is allowed to expand more than the middle of the case, thus hard extraction. If you reamed the chambers to make them straight, they would end up being way oversized. A careful inspection of your spent brass will confirm this condition. Next time you go to the range, save several of the spent cases that ejected hard. Use a precision caliper to measure the OD of the cases. They should be the same diameter from rim to mouth. If the mouth is slightly larger than the body, you found the problem (even if the mouth is only .0005" larger).

Another issue is oil .... chambers should be bone dry ... no oil at all. Oil picks up powder residue and actually increases extraction friction. If you previously oiled your chambers after cleaning, try shooting the gun again starting with clean dry chambers.

I guarantee ... one of the above is the culprit.

 

[sally]

@FRAN: Will do, thanks for the tip. Sorry, but what does "roll it out" mean?

@cjWils: very interesting observations re rimfile and residual powder,
but the Winchester's *seem* to fire ok (but they get stuck when it comes to extraction) . Please
let us know what your test with the q-tip trick reveal and which ammo you used.

@2krkrider: I thought the same thing, in fact I waited a whole week till I re-fired my 317 (actually that's really the only way I can test it out -- one weekend at a time), but even after cooling for a week the jamming still occurred.

@HAM: Thanks for posting, I was wondering about the use of a stiff brush to clean the chambers and therefore essentially "enlarging" the chambers.

@ALL: anyone think all these issues may be due to the "scandium" material?

 

[cjwils]

A few days ago, I mentioned that I would try my 317 while clearing the cylinder chambers with a q-tip each time to get powder residue out. I tried that today, and it didn't make much difference. I used Winchester 36 gr hp, CCI 40 gr, and Federal 40 gr. All about the same, except that the Winchesters might have loaded and extracted sightly better when the gun was hot.

But the good news is that my 317 functioned much better today than it had before, whether I cleaned the cylinder or not. (It is new, this is only the 3rd time I have used it) The first time I used it, before I fired 100 rounds, it had bound up so tightly that I had to stop. The second time I used it, that problem happened by about 50 rounds. However, today, I went well past 100 rounds without being forced to stop. A few times, it bound up slightly, but I could still shoot.

This makes me wonder if my 317 simply needs a break in period. Maybe some key parts are too tight, and bind up when hot; but will get looser with more use.

The fact that the frame, barrel, cylinder, etc are mostly aluminum might mean that binding up when hot is more problematic than with a steel gun. If you check the thermal expansion factors for various metals at Engineering ToolBox, you can see that aluminum alloys all expand more when hot than the steel alloys do. Titanium expands significantly less, but the 317 seems to be aluminum alloy only, no scandium or titanium.

I will try it a few more times to see if it continues to get better. Maybe I won't try to return it after all.

 

[Roca]

@ALL: anyone think all these issues may be due to the "scandium" material?

To my knowledge there in no scandium in the 317. Its all aluminum. This was what S&W told me when I called them to ask about proper cleaning of the cylinder. If someone knows better, please speak up.

 

[gr7070]

I found the hotter the 317 gets, the more sticky it is to eject.

I doubt it has to do with heat. I assume that's a coincidence and that the hotter it gets the dirtier it is or some other problem unrelated to temperature.

When a metal gets hotter it expands. When a plate with a hole in it gets hotter both the plate and the hole gets bigger - counterintuitive, but true. A cylinder is nothing more than a thick plate with a bunch of holes.

Therefore as it gets hot the cylinder chambers increase in diameter slightly.

 

[cjwils]

I'm back after shooting my new 317 for the 4th time today. As I mentioned above, the first 2 times I shot it, it bound up badly and was unusable before 100 rounds. The 3rd time I shot it was better. I swabbed out the chambers occasionally with a q-tip, which may have helped. Extraction and trigger pull got tight after awhile, but I was able to shoot 100 rounds without total lockup.

Today, the 4th time, it shot pretty nicely for well over 100 rounds. Trigger pull was smooth almost every time. On about 4 shots out of more than 100, the trigger pull was noticeably tighter. But oddly today, extraction was difficult every time, even after the first 8 shots. Previously, extraction did not become difficult until I also felt the trigger pull binding up. I used 3 different brands of ammo and had tight extraction with each. I swabbed out the chambers with a q-tip occasionally, but it didn't seem to make much difference in the extraction.

Previously, I thought the problems might be heat related, but I did some research on the issues that gr7070 mentioned above, and I now agree with him that heat is not the likely cause of my problems. Anyway, this gun never gets hot. Even after dozens of rounds in quick succession, it is only slightly warm.

So, I wonder if the aluminum cylinder is the problem. Is it possible that aluminum binds to warm brass after shooting in a way that steel does not? Is it possible that aluminum holds on to powder residue more than steel does? Could it be that the inside of my chambers is not smooth enough? Anyone have any comments on those issues? I have never called S&W customer service, but I wonder if I could get a straight answer from them on those issues.

 

[gr7070]

617 OK

I have a 4" 10-shot 617. I just got back from the range with it. I put about 175 rds through it tonight. Its previous trip to the range had at least 150+ rds. It was not cleaned between. No issue whatsoever in about 350 rds.

I believe I have put easily 500+ rds through it in one trip before without issues, multiple times.

I would have posted earlier but I was going to the range soon and wanted to pay particular attention to this issue.

Ejecting and loading I have never noticed added difficulty.

Edit: my 617 is a new one, SS cylinder. I wouldn't expect slight metal property differences to matter enough that one would cause significant issues. They're good questions, though, and maybe they play a factor??

 

[cjwils]

Today I shot my new 317 for the 5th time. I continue to be puzzled, but I think I am making some progress in finding a solution, as well as finding what does not work.

Before I shot, I cleaned the chambers very thoroughly with powder solvent and then wiped them well. After I was done cleaning, the inside of the chambers looked pristine. I thought that would help solve my problems with jamming and difficult extraction. BUT IT DIDN'T. I had difficult extraction almost immediately, and after 30 rounds or so, it started to bind up, eventually reaching a condition in which double action trigger pull was nearly impossible, and opening the cylinder took all the strength I had in my fingers.

I had been shooting a variety of ammo, but all of it was copper jacked high velocity stuff, such as CCI mini mag, Win 36 grain HP, and others. So, as a last resort, I tried some standard and low velocity, solid lead bullets; and they all worked perfectly! I used American Eagle 40 grain lead and CCI standard velocity 40 grain lead. No jams, no binding up, no difficult trigger pulls.

Unfortunately, I still had moderately difficult extraction, but not as bad as with the jacketed ammo. As a final test, I tried some 22 shorts, and they extracted so easily that they almost fell out by themselves.

So maybe standard velocity lead bullets are the answer, if I can live with moderately difficult extraction. But still I wonder about the extraction. Is it possible that the aluminum cylinder on a 317 simply cannot extract well with even standard velocity 22 long rifle ammo? Is aluminum simply a bad choice for a revolver cylinder, even in a 22?

 

[cjwils]

Even though in my post of Nov 2 above, I said the situation seemed to be better, I continued to have difficult extraction with all ammo except 22 shorts. So I decided to send it in for repair. I called S&W and they sent me a shipping label right away. From the day I shipped it, it took only 19 days to get it back to me. I got it back today, along with a a note from S&W saying they replaced the cylinder. I hope to try it within the next few days, and will report my results.

 

[Roca]

Even though in my post of Nov 2 above, I said the situation seemed to be better, I continued to have difficult extraction with all ammo except 22 shorts. So I decided to send it in for repair. I called S&W and they sent me a shipping label right away. From the day I shipped it, it took only 19 days to get it back to me. I got it back today, along with a a note from S&W saying they replaced the cylinder. I hope to try it within the next few days, and will report my results.

It will be interesting to see the results.

 

[cjwils]

Following the cylinder replacement by S&W, I went to the range today and fired about 150 rounds, including several types of ammo. Mostly semi-rapid double action. I worked rapidly enough that the gun got rather warm, although definitely not "hot". (I don't really think that heat makes much difference, but I mentioned it because way above in this thread, someone said he occasionally let his model 317 cool down.) I am happy to report there was not one single jam and not one single difficult extraction. The new cylinder seems to be a little bit looser than the old one; I say looser because inserting the bullets is easier. On the whole, I am pleased with the way that S&W handled my problem. I should have returned my 317 sooner.

 

[kimber 22]

Following the cylinder replacement by S&W, I went to the range today and fired about 150 rounds, including several types of ammo. Mostly semi-rapid double action. I worked rapidly enough that the gun got rather warm, although definitely not "hot". (I don't really think that heat makes much difference, but I mentioned it because way above in this thread, someone said he occasionally let his model 317 cool down.) I am happy to report there was not one single jam and not one single difficult extraction. The new cylinder seems to be a little bit looser than the old one; I say looser because inserting the bullets is easier. On the whole, I am pleased with the way that S&W handled my problem. I should have returned my 317 sooner.

I'm glad to hear your problem was solved, though I'm not surprised as S&W usually has great customer service. In this era of businesses prioritizing cutbacks over quality products and service, I always worry about when that will end. Fortunately, the firearms industry, especially the "Made in the USA" brands, seem to be maintaining the high standards we used to expect routinely from American companies.

My only gripe about S&W is they won't e-mail you a shipment notification. Yes, they say "signature required" on the shipping label, so you should come home to find a Post-it on your door, but I have always found UPS is very accommodating and will leave the package on your doorstep to save you a trip to their yard. (Other shippers like FedEx are more careful about getting a signature, but not necessarily from the intended recipient.) That happened with my Walther P-22 when it went back for warranty, and that is handled by S&W. Everybody else does shipment notification these days, which is nearly automatic and requires only minimal effort from the vendor. I complained to no avail, and even wrote the CEO, and did not receive an response. I would think shipment of a firearm deserves a little more attention to detail than a new pair of shoes or fancy, overpriced basket, and the simple e-notifications the major shippers have been using since the mid to late '90's provide that extra detail, at least for me.