SW 686 versus COLT Python?

[runscott]

I believe Colt was trying to up it's game to compete on the high end without directly taking on the Model 27. Seems more logical to me.
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Also, the L-frame is not considered S&W's flagship so there is no direct comparison.

Please correct me if I am wrong about any of the following. I was young and shooting a Ruger 22 when all of this was happening.

I think you are almost certainly correct, but didn't the Model 27 lose popularity because of the Python and then S&W gave up and created the 686 to directly compete with the Python? I've read stories about s&w owners creating Frankensteins to emulate the Python. So when the 686 came out, what else were you going to compare it to?

You often want to build a competitive product cheaper but have the public believe it has everything that its competitor has. To the public, the 686 was an acceptable alternative, and it was less expensive. Most didn't want to pay for the extra work Colt put into the Python. Some couldn't even see it. A retired Sheriff I know told me that they carried either a Python or a 686 and he by far preferred the 686...but some of his friends preferred the Python. It was all about functionality.

 

[Bacon]

I have no idea whether Model 27 sales were affected by the Python. As I stated before there were good reasons to bring out the L-frame that had nothing to do with Colt. Occasionally S&W listens to their customer base and this was one of those times they responded with a great product.

I understand that many man-hours went into producing each Python. This made for a finely tuned revolver that was very accurate. They do require more maintenance and spare parts. This put the Python into a different class from the rest of the Colt DA revolvers and most S&W wheelguns. You'd have to go back to pre-war examples to find a Smith with similar workmanship. This is why I think it is not a fair comparison.

 

[runscott]

That's all true (your 2nd paragraph), and maybe the comparisons aren't fair, but it's easy for me to understand why people who are not as knowledgeable as you compare the two. As someone who owns one of each and has studied their history and realizes that technically it isn't a fair comparison, I think it's cool that the 686 makes that conversation anyway.

 

[runscott]

I have no idea whether Model 27 sales were affected by the Python. As I stated before there were good reasons to bring out the L-frame that had nothing to do with Colt. Occasionally S&W listens to their customer base and this was one of those times they responded with a great product.

I think it had everything to do with the Colt Python. Colt beat s&w to the punch and s&w eventually had to respond.

 

[muddocktor]

Back in the 70's and 80's I had a friend that had a 6" Python and it was a nice gun. At that time I had only 1 pistol, which was a 5" 27-2 I had bought new in 1974. We would go out shooting the stuffings out of things and cutting trees down with our revolvers and after one such session he noticed his barrel was clocked. He'd never noticed it before then. So, was the barrel clocked all that time or did it turn a degree or 2 when we were shooting down a tree, which got both guns hot as a firecracker? His Python was a nice shooting gun and was accurate, but my 27-2 had a better trigger and was just as accurate.

As for comparing a Python to the 686, well that isn't a fair comparison. One sells for well less than $1000 and to play with the other is gonna cost you at least $2500-3000 minimum. If you want to compare the Python to something in it's price range, it would be more fair to compare it to a Korth than to a 686.

 

[muddocktor]

I think it had everything to do with the Colt Python. Colt beat s&w to the punch and s&w eventually had to respond.

You do know the predecessor of the model 27 was the Registered Magnum, which came out at the same time as the .357 Magnum cartridge in 1935, right? You could say that the Python was Colt's late entry into the 357 Mag market instead.

 

[runscott]

You do know the predecessor of the model 27 was the Registered Magnum, which came out at the same time as the .357 Magnum cartridge in 1935, right? You could say that the Python was Colt's late entry into the 357 Mag market instead.

Sorry, I meant that Colt beat s&w to the punch on the Python/686 design, not on the .357 magnum cartridge.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Colt 3-5-7 magnum was Colt's late entry, and it was comparable to the s&w 357 magnum. Colt changed its 357 magnum's name to the Trooper about the time s&w changed the .357 to the Model 27 and the Highway Patrolman to the Model 28. Colt didn't wait long after introducing the 3-5-7 and came out with the Python in 1954 or 1955 (I forget) while s&w stayed pat with their three .357 models.

I get that you all think the 686/Python comparison is an unfair comparison based on price and cost to produce. I'm trying to look at it from the consumer's viewpoint and from the manufacturer's customer perception goals, not from that of hardware junkies like us.

We know exactly what each gun actually is and because of price, if we had a mint 686 and a mint Python, the Python is going in the safe and the 686 gets used. We know the Python is overpriced, but still special and still worth more, so we don't think comparing them is fair. But when they were both being produced it was about a weapon that was going to be used, thus functionality and price. Consumers eventually weren't willing to pay extra for all the extra stuff behind the scenes in the Python, and Colt couldn't continue to produce the same quality gun for a reasonable price so the Python went away. I'm sure there were other reasons, as all Colts went away, but my understanding is that that is what happened. I've also read that the reason Colt doesn't re-introduce the Python is that it would be cost-prohibitive to re-create the production process.

Given that some of you (and my friends) prefer the 686 over the Python, but see similarities, I believe comparison based on functionality is valid. Bang for the buck, obviously no longer comparable.

Do you think a more valid comparison would be the Trooper vs the Model 27 or Highway Patrolman? I have never fired a Trooper or 3-5-7, or even held one, so I don't know, but a lot of people (most) who have say there is little or no difference in the action between a 1950's or early 1960's Trooper, and a Python of the same period. But that's just what I've read. Others say there is a difference.

I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone. I'm a historian by nature, so before I purchased any old s&w's or the Python, I did a LOT of research - googling, purchasing books, reading the heck out of this forum and the Colt forum. But that was all done in a short time, so my apologies if you guys completely disagree with my assessment.

 

[muddocktor]

runscott, I'm not offended at all. But the fact of the matter is that the .357 Magnum cartridge's true name is the .357 S&W Magnum and was developed to counter Colt's .38 Super Automatic cartridge, according to Wikipedia. And the first pistol that was developed to use this cartridge was the Registered Magnum, which is basically the same N frame revolver that evolved into the Model 27. And the Model 27 was (and still is) the "Cadillac" offering of S&W, just like the Python was the "Cadillac" offering of Colt. So in my book, the more proper comparison would be Python to Model 27 and the Trooper would be more properly compared to the 686 or 586, since both are the less fancy lines from the 2 manufacturers. Now size-wise I will agree that the Python and the 686/586 compare very closely.

BTW, I'm not up of the history of the Colt .357 guns, but I know that any .357 Magnum offerings from them came after S&W, since S&W was the developer of the cartridge. You can't really go wrong with either, but I just never really warmed up to the Python as compared to my 27-2.

 

[runscott]

runscott, I'm not offended at all. But the fact of the matter is that the .357 Magnum cartridge's true name is the .357 S&W Magnum and was developed to counter Colt's .38 Super Automatic cartridge, according to Wikipedia. And the first pistol that was developed to use this cartridge was the Registered Magnum, which is basically the same N frame revolver that evolved into the Model 27. And the Model 27 was (and still is) the "Cadillac" offering of S&W, just like the Python was the "Cadillac" offering of Colt. So in my book, the more proper comparison would be Python to Model 27 and the Trooper would be more properly compared to the 686 or 586, since both are the less fancy lines from the 2 manufacturers. Now size-wise I will agree that the Python and the 686/586 compare very closely.

BTW, I'm not up of the history of the Colt .357 guns, but I know that any .357 Magnum offerings from them came after S&W, since S&W was the developer of the cartridge. You can't really go wrong with either, but I just never really warmed up to the Python as compared to my 27-2.

We both understand the history exactly the same, I was just trying to explain my thoughts as to why the comparisons are being made. Obviously anyone can compare anything they want to anything else they want, but the Trooper and 686 weren't in production at the same time and didn't look much alike either, so I'm having a hard time going with that comparison. But in any event, we disagree and that's fine. I've exhausted every ounce of knowledge I have on this subject, so I'll bow out now. Thanks for discussing.

 

[prairieviper]

I have owned several Pythons over the years and will tell you that their reputation as a smooth and accurate gun is well deserved. The analogy of the Python being like a fine automobile which requires much more maintenance than your average Chevy or Ford is also very true. I have never owned a 686, but have owned a 4" model 27, and a 5" model 627PC, in addition to several other very fine S&W revolvers. Coming from a die hard Python lover, it is hard for me to say, but due to the scarcity/unavailability of Python parts, and the decreasing number of truly qualified gunsmiths who can maintain a Python, I would first suggest the 686. Actually, I would suggest the 627PC as my go to .357, then the 686.

wantmoresmiths pretty well sums up my feelings as well. That said, I have owned several Pythons over the years and wish I still had them.

 

[runscott]

So in my book, the more proper comparison would be Python to Model 27 and the Trooper would be more properly compared to the 686 or 586, since both are the less fancy lines from the 2 manufacturers. Now size-wise I will agree that the Python and the 686/586 compare very closely.

Hey, I was wrong - the Trooper wiki page says it was manufactured from 1953 to 1985 (not 1969), so, assuming that end date is correct, there were about five years of overlap with the 686. I'm sure buyers would have been comparing all four .357s we've been discussing, plus the Highway Patrolman and possibly the Combat magnum.

I will be comparing my 1955 .357 magnum and 686 to a 1970 Python, 1954 Colt 3-5-7 and a 1958 Highway Patrolman. I don't have access to a Combat Magnum.

 

[muddocktor]

That sounds great runscott. I do look forward to your thoughts on the various guns and how you think they compare.

I've never handled a Trooper, but my younger brother has a 2" barreled Lawman Mk III and I think the Lawman and the Trooper share the same internals. His Lawman is a hoot to shoot but a bit of a handful with full power 158 grain 357 Mags loaded up. I wouldn't mind one of those instead of a J frame; 1 more round.

 

[runscott]

That sounds great runscott. I do look forward to your thoughts on the various guns and how you think they compare.

I've never handled a Trooper, but my younger brother has a 2" barreled Lawman Mk III and I think the Lawman and the Trooper share the same internals. His Lawman is a hoot to shoot but a bit of a handful with full power 158 grain 357 Mags loaded up. I wouldn't mind one of those instead of a J frame; 1 more round.

I'm not a Colt guy so I haven't looked into anything other than the 3-5-7, Python and SAA, and all from a historical perspective so that I can better understand S&W revolvers, which is my real interest. Also, I only have one example of each - if I get a 'less-than-spectacular' example of one, or a 'super-spectacular' example of another, the test is really invalid. And I will have no idea if any example I shoot is living up to the model's true potential. But I can't wait to get after it!

The tests that really count are from the guys who have shot a lot of rounds out of both the 686 and the Python. The fact that there is disagreement among such people as to performance, given that we know they are mechanically different in function, means that we'll never have a definitive answer - it's always a matter of personal preference.

 

[rkittine]

I just bought a NIB 1970s 6" Python. It was never registered and was held by a dealer until he closed up his shop and finally sold it. The box and all the paperwork are prestine. I am not sure I am ever going to shoot it though. I have owned Pythons in the past and love them, but I have also owned S&W 19s, 66s an 27 and like my 6.5" Model 27 the best. A nice twin to one of my 29s.

Bob

 

[357 shooter]

Bought a used 4" Python in the late 1980s and after all these years it was easily the most gorgeous handgun I had ever owned. I was impressed to say the least.

BUT - for what ever reason I could not shoot it very well compared to my 686 and even my GP100. Admittedly I did not experiment with a lot of different loads but in all the years I have shot 357s never had any that would not shoot very well with 158JHPs and classic magnum powders like 2400, H110 and 296. I traded it off not long afterwards.

In retrospect it would have been worth hanging on to as I would have been able to get my money back several times over!

 

[runscott]

That sounds great runscott. I do look forward to your thoughts on the various guns and how you think they compare.

I've never handled a Trooper, but my younger brother has a 2" barreled Lawman Mk III and I think the Lawman and the Trooper share the same internals. His Lawman is a hoot to shoot but a bit of a handful with full power 158 grain 357 Mags loaded up. I wouldn't mind one of those instead of a J frame; 1 more round.

You're right - the Lawman is a lesser-grade Trooper. I did a little bit more research to make sure my dates lined up. This is all old news to most of you, but to keep things in perspective:

1935 - S&W registered .357 magnum (continued as 27)
1954 - S&W introduced the Highway Patrolman, removing features from the .357 (continued as 28)
1954 - Colt had started the 'Trooper' line of .38 special and .22 in 1953. In 1954 they introduced the 3-5-7 to that line, to compete with the Highway Patrolman. The Colt 3-5-7 was built on a smaller frame (same as the following year's Python) than the .357 magnum & Highway Patrolman.
1955 - 1st Python. It seems to me like Colt decided to address both ends of the .357 market with the 3-5-7 in 1954 and the Python to compete with the higher-end S&W .357
1955 - Ruger Blackhawk (traditional Cowboy design, unlike S&W and Colt models)
1957 - S&W Combat Magnum (19)
1981 - 686
1982 - Colt MK V ('V' frame - smaller than the Python & MK III, replacing the Trooper which hung on until 1983)

Generally, new products are an attempt to compete with an existing product (a response), or an innovation to grab a new niche. Sometimes these responses are delayed for a variety of reasons. I always read the 686 as a delayed response to the Python. It didn't have to be as good or as expensive - it just needed to take away market share, or to fill in a niche that didn't previously exist. Perhaps S&W couldn't build a perceived competitor for the Python until 1981 because they weren't willing to incur the cost, but when they could, they did. And didn't the 686 finally kind of kill the Python? (like a mongoose?)

Disclaimer: the above doesn't consider the impact that Ruger, etc., had on the dynamics of the .357 market.

edited to add Ruger Blackhawk to the mix
edited to add that the Colt 3-5-7 was built on a smaller frame than the .357 magnum & Highway Patrolman

 

[Walkingwolf]

Pythons have a reputation, but are high priced. Today I would chose the 686 because I value, value.

42 years ago I had a choice between a nickel police trade in Python for 200 bucks, and a Ruger Security Six new for slightly less. After handling both I chose the Ruger, though the Python would have been a good investment. To this day I do not buy guns as investments.

The gun was a former Indiana State Police revolver, some troopers I knew at the time complained of timing issues with the Python. I am sure they were exaggerated, but I picked the Ruger.

 

[runscott]

The gun was a former Indiana State Police revolver, some troopers I knew at the time complained of timing issues with the Python. I am sure they were exaggerated, but I picked the Ruger.

When I went to buy a Blackhawk 357 they didn't have one, but they had the 686+. It didn't take much to sell me on it.

 

[captainwayne]

My 686 + “Super tuned” revo has at least the equal trigger to my 4” Colt python.
What are you wanting? Only a home defense weapon? There’s tons of them from all makes that will work if and when you need them.
If you want something more top of the line, hard to beat a good 686 for the $$$

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

OP: If you can find a NIB Python for "$2200" you should jump on it. That would be a hell of a good price.
Having said that, I've owned both. The S&W DA trigger is considerably better. The single action Python trigger is insane though and the action feels like it was made by a Swiss watch maker. That said, if they were all the same price, I'd take the 686. Now as an investment, definitely the Colt.