Tactical Problem & Best Resolution

[S/W - Lifer]

After hearing of a cleric gunned down during a recent church service, my pastor came to me and wanted to know if I could counter an armed threat. He knows I do this professionally and have the legal authority. Consultation with my agency's legal rep confirmed my legal ability to engage.

Here's the problem. Both the pastor and I want a one shot stop. I have an issued 9 and don't trust it. I carry a J and don't trust myself for a precision shot. Ranges average 10 feet, could be as close as a near contact shot or as long as 50 feet.

For this exercise we won't consider a gun battle, just a very quick "lights out" shot. Walls serve as backstops.

Let's keep it to handguns due to speed and concealability.

What's your choice?

 

[S/W - Lifer]

After hearing of a cleric gunned down during a recent church service, my pastor came to me and wanted to know if I could counter an armed threat. He knows I do this professionally and have the legal authority. Consultation with my agency's legal rep confirmed my legal ability to engage.

Here's the problem. Both the pastor and I want a one shot stop. I have an issued 9 and don't trust it. I carry a J and don't trust myself for a precision shot. Ranges average 10 feet, could be as close as a near contact shot or as long as 50 feet.

For this exercise we won't consider a gun battle, just a very quick "lights out" shot. Walls serve as backstops.

Let's keep it to handguns due to speed and concealability.

What's your choice?

 

[Riccur]

Everyone wants a one shot stop but real life seldom gives us what we want, especially in your scenario where the BG is probably going to be on the move.

I'd say you need to get confident/comfortable with making the shot regardless of which gun you use. That means shooting shooting and more shooting until it comes naturally.

If you can make the shot and the gun cannot that is a different story. Then you need to make a new purchase.

You may want to consider reloading for accuracy as well.

Rick

 

[GatorFarmer]

.357 Sig if you believe in JHPs, .44 Mag revolver or a .45 auto if you don't. (Or a .44 Special like the Rossi 720, Charter Bulldog, or 296, 696 et al for a deeper concealment piece.)

There's always the Glock 34/35 - longer barrels for a possibly more precise shot.

If you want a long gun to take in, you can borrow my folding stock M1 carbine or Sig 556 and just keep it next to you on the bench with a coat or blanket wrapped around it.

 

[Birddog2]

Even more important than the weapon you choose, will be your position in the church.
A crowded church with parishioners and choir in additon to the Pastor will provide many problems being in position to stop a BG and insure that no rounds hit anyone else.
Air Marshal situations come to mind.
I think you and the Partor are going to need to work out your best position, probably reherse and do this with as few church members as possible knowing what you are doing.
I'd go with a 1911 or a large caliber revolver because I'm comfortable with them.

 

[flop-shank]

What works for me may not for you. I carry a 5" 629 .44 magnum loaded with full power 165 gr. JHPs, and that is the gun I would want if limited to handguns. Even with the cannon I carry, OSSs are far from guaranteed without precise shot placement.

 

[S/W - Lifer]

For clarification:

My position has been selected, giving me a clean shot without anyone in the background. There are well constructed walls as backstops. I'm prepared to modify my position and already have a plan.

I have a good selection of firearms to choose from. I have some ideas in mind with respect to guns and loads.

I'm well trained for this type of situation and can place my shot.

My question to the Forum is "What handgun and load whould you choose?" under these circumstances.

Thanks,

S/W - Lifer

 

[flop-shank]

Also FWIW, it's hard to go wrong with a 4" or longer .357.

 

[Titan]

Originally posted by S/W - Lifer:
For clarification:

My position has been selected, giving me a clean shot without anyone in the background. There are well constructed walls as backstops. I'm prepared to modify my position and already have a plan.

I have a good selection of firearms to choose from. I have some ideas in mind with respect to guns and loads.

I'm well trained for this type of situation and can place my shot.

My question to the Forum is "What handgun and load whould you choose?" under these circumstances.

Thanks,

S/W - Lifer

How can you have already selected your position when you don't yet know what the circumstances of the incident will be?

Are you going to be in a turret opposite the pulpit? Will you be at every service? Will you follow the pastor around after services?

Let me be the first to say that this just sounds a bit weird.

.

 

[keggius]

Originally posted by Titan:
How can you have already selected your position when you don't yet know what the circumstances of the incident will be?

Are you going to be in a turret opposite the pulpit? Will you be at every service? Will you follow the pastor around after services?

Let me be the first to say that this just sounds a bit weird.

This.
Also, if you are "well trained for this type of situation and can place my shot" then it doesn't matter what you carry as long as it is the gun and load with which you train.

 

[S/W - Lifer]

The idea is to protect the target, who is the pastor. The attacker will move to close with the pastor as has been demonstrated in other murders.

If I'm present I interceed. If I'm not, I don't.

What I frequently see on the Forum are opinions from members about what they would do in a tactical sitiuation or criticism of what others did, or did not do, especially law enforcement officers.

What I describe is nothing more than a countermeasure to a gunman in a crowded room. Action will be taken to stop the gunman and if it were not, then someone will say "If only someone had been there with a gun." Well, someone is there with a gun. The only question is what you think is the best tool for the job.

What is wierd is one someone shoots up a church, a restaurant or a school and no one lifts a finger. It seems some talk and some do.

 

[GatorFarmer]

S/W Lifer is a good guy and knows what he's doing. It sounds like they've picked him out a good spot where he can keep an eye on things and provide protection to the Pastor. He's simply asking for opinions about the "hardware" end of things since he doesn't trust the 9mm's effectiveness - many people don't given the number of .40s, .45s, et al sold every year.

 

[Titan]

That being the case (that the only issue is the seleciton of gun and caliber), I believe that most would recommend the .45acp for maximum stopping power with least risk of overpenetration.
.

 

[keggius]

Then I would use whatever I shot the best. If you can put it where it needs to go you're 9mm or .38spl will do the job. I shoot my .357SIG the most so that's what I would use. I'm also very confident in the round if I put it where it needs to go. Use whatever gives you that confidence.

 

[TxShooter]

Which 9mm are you issued? Seems like it'd make the most sense to carry the same make/action type but in a larger caliber if you're unhappy with the 9mm's performance. IE, if you're carrying a SIG P226 all week it'd make a lot more sense to carry a P220 .45 that fits the same holster rather than only switching to a 1911 or revolver on Sundays.

 

[GLV]

My church gun is one I often carry, either in 44 Special or 45ACP. I prefer a revolver for this kind of situation, either in L or N frame.

 

[cshoff]

What I would like to know is, where exactly is this magical spot you can place a bullet of any handgun caliber that guarantees you a one shot stop? With anything less than a shot taken at near contact, there is certainly no target spot that guarantees a one shot stop.

 

[growr]

For what it is worth...I would use the largest caliber gun that I feel totally confident in my skills of making the shot count when it needs to. Perhaps something already in your inventory meets that. Essentially you KNOW that you will be on target with ammo you trust to perform in the manner you need.
Randy

 

[J274895]

OK, from the responses I've seen so far, I know it's not just me, so I will say that this is a seriously weird topic.

A guy shot at point blank range might possibly be put down with a .22 mag as well as a .44 mag. It all depends on the circumstances.

 

[S/W - Lifer]

My choice of firearm and ammunition has already been made. I'll be using a 625-6 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP with Winchester Silvertips. I'll carry some additional ammo loaded in moonclips. My level of training and comfort with the S&W revolver makes it a better choice than the auto.

There are some bright and savvy people on the Forum and I wanted to get other opinions to see if I'd missed something regarding firearms options. In our youth we think we know it all. Older and wiser folks are willing to listen. It seems we are generally thinking alike.

Effective shot placement is a professional requirement for me. I'm confident I can make that happen. If it doesn't work out I shoot again. The goal is a quick stop and minimal shooting in a crowded building, preferably without pass-through.

Thanks to all for their input.