fallhunter
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What does the FBI carry?
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Texas DPS switching to M&P 9
- Thread starter Jdugan4859
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Doug M.
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They are transitioning to 9mm, I think in Glocks like the 22/23 they have now.
fallhunter
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22 and 23 are .40 caliber.. Unless I am missing something..
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I think Doug was speaking in terms of size, as in the same size as in the 22/23 they have now. Which would be the 17/19.
But if I understand my bureaucracy correctly I'm sure this will require a whole new series of gun tests. I can't remember if the GEN4 Glock was part of the last BATF-E/DHS T&E or not. I know Glock did have some submission and it passed, the M&P was submitted and passed and the Sig P250 was submitted and failed.
I hope the DHS doesn't change guns/calibers however since they just bought a gazillion rounds of 40 Cal ammo.
But if I understand my bureaucracy correctly I'm sure this will require a whole new series of gun tests. I can't remember if the GEN4 Glock was part of the last BATF-E/DHS T&E or not. I know Glock did have some submission and it passed, the M&P was submitted and passed and the Sig P250 was submitted and failed.
I hope the DHS doesn't change guns/calibers however since they just bought a gazillion rounds of 40 Cal ammo.
I just don't see the issue with modern HST 9MM ballistics:
** Tactical HST **
9mm HST 124 364 1150
9mm +P HST 124 396 1200
9mm HST 147 326 1000
9mm +P HST 147 360 1050
Anytime you can get near 400 ft. lb. you are in good shape.
** Tactical HST **
9mm HST 124 364 1150
9mm +P HST 124 396 1200
9mm HST 147 326 1000
9mm +P HST 147 360 1050
Anytime you can get near 400 ft. lb. you are in good shape.
If TDPS selects a 147 gr load in 9x19 that would be DUMB! My agency was enamored with the "hi cap .38 spl" for years....then some pissed off felons (& mean dogs) didn't appreciate getting shot with those loads & were alive to BMG about it. We now use 124 gr Gold Dots in 9mm & they are quite effective. More dead felons.....
I'm still an 'over .40' club member myself, but the 9mm with the RIGHT ammo is decent.
TDPS ought to look at the 124 gr+P GDHP. That has worked well for the agencies that use it.
Yes the .357 Sig & .40 do have snappy recoil, but they aren't hard to master. My predecessors did it with .357 mags back in the day & their recoil is significantly more.
I'm still an 'over .40' club member myself, but the 9mm with the RIGHT ammo is decent.
TDPS ought to look at the 124 gr+P GDHP. That has worked well for the agencies that use it.
Yes the .357 Sig & .40 do have snappy recoil, but they aren't hard to master. My predecessors did it with .357 mags back in the day & their recoil is significantly more.
Holden6v8
Member
"Spray and Pray?"
This sounds more like the title. How long does it take to change mags to get the extra 2 rounds they are praising?
Sure, 9's have enough power if the right load is chosen, but agencies have a habit of being dumb about that. In my experience, the average level of marksmanship for LEO was never very good and despite much improved training since my day does not seem to be much better. Isn't that the answer? Besides, since most DPS Troopers sit a lot, what difference does weight make? Not like they are on foot patrol for a shift.....
This sounds more like the title. How long does it take to change mags to get the extra 2 rounds they are praising?
Sure, 9's have enough power if the right load is chosen, but agencies have a habit of being dumb about that. In my experience, the average level of marksmanship for LEO was never very good and despite much improved training since my day does not seem to be much better. Isn't that the answer? Besides, since most DPS Troopers sit a lot, what difference does weight make? Not like they are on foot patrol for a shift.....
SuperMan
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...if you don't hit your target it's not going to make any difference how many rounds your gun holds.
In 1997 I was at the SIG Academy for an ammunition seminar. Evan Marshall was one of the speakers. I asked him what he felt the minimum impact velocity was for guarantied expansion under a worse case scenario such as the HP plugging up with clothing. His answer was with most bullets it was 1350+ fps. He went on to say if you wanted to see if the ammo you were carrying would expand under almost any circumstance, plug up the HP with modeling clay and shoot it into your favorite test media....
Any round from a .22 Short on up will kill someone...that is not the goal of defensive ammunition...it is to incapacitate someone immediately. From what I have seen, read and spoken to shooters who have been there and done that, .35/125/1350+ works...
Bob
In 1997 I was at the SIG Academy for an ammunition seminar. Evan Marshall was one of the speakers. I asked him what he felt the minimum impact velocity was for guarantied expansion under a worse case scenario such as the HP plugging up with clothing. His answer was with most bullets it was 1350+ fps. He went on to say if you wanted to see if the ammo you were carrying would expand under almost any circumstance, plug up the HP with modeling clay and shoot it into your favorite test media....
Any round from a .22 Short on up will kill someone...that is not the goal of defensive ammunition...it is to incapacitate someone immediately. From what I have seen, read and spoken to shooters who have been there and done that, .35/125/1350+ works...
Bob
fallhunter
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Ranger T series is popular with Law Enforcement agenciesvit seems also.
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SoCalDep
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I think it's funny how many opinions are being thrown around. Having talked to some of the Texas DPS firearms training staff, they have their head on straight as far as the ammo thing goes. They have done extensive testing which has given similar results to my agency. We have used the 147gr Ranger-T since it was the LE-Only Black Talon load and it has proven itself a reliable and effective round. This is not based on theory or anecdotal incidents. It's based on hundreds of shootings.
My agency issues the 9mm and approves the .45 auto. I own an approved .45 and have carried them in the past. I enjoy shooting my .45 HK USP and it is the most accurate handgun I own. That said, for duty I use an M&P 9mm, and it's a very educated choice.
My agency issues the 9mm and approves the .45 auto. I own an approved .45 and have carried them in the past. I enjoy shooting my .45 HK USP and it is the most accurate handgun I own. That said, for duty I use an M&P 9mm, and it's a very educated choice.
SoCalDep
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The FBI currently (or at least recently) issues Glocks in .40 cal (ie: the 22 or 23) but they are converting to 9mm...The prior post was inferring they would likely convert to (or maybe he has info to confirm) the G17/19 platform...as in the same size pistol as the 22/23 they are issuing now.
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After how much taxpayer money was spent developing the .40 S&W???
Doug M.
Member
None, as far as I know. My understanding has been that S&W perceived a niche and went for it. The 1076 had more than a few issues (I had one - they went through extractors like beer at salty snack convention), and was too darned big for plainclothes investigators. The FBI's issue .40 ammo has been downloaded from the standard specs twice since they first adopted it, which probably had a taxpayer cost, but I am not aware of what exactly that might be.
Remember the context, too. In 1986, our knowledge of handgun terminal ballistics performance was limited. Bullet design was little better than primitive. In addition, not very many people involved in LE weapon selection, policy development, and training knew how much they did not know. One of the more significant lessons of the FBI's shooting near Miami was the vital importance of taking a long gun if you have to go to a fight, because pistols just don't cut it. Those agents died, not so much because the 9mm Silvertip did not quite penetrate enough (although the wound was not survivable) but because they went with pistols when they should have had rifles, and their opponents did use at least one rifle. Even just 3 years later, our academy instructors were stressing the importance of taking a long gun if we had any reason to expect a fight; that slugs were the default choice for a service shotgun, and that rifles were an even better choice.
Remember the context, too. In 1986, our knowledge of handgun terminal ballistics performance was limited. Bullet design was little better than primitive. In addition, not very many people involved in LE weapon selection, policy development, and training knew how much they did not know. One of the more significant lessons of the FBI's shooting near Miami was the vital importance of taking a long gun if you have to go to a fight, because pistols just don't cut it. Those agents died, not so much because the 9mm Silvertip did not quite penetrate enough (although the wound was not survivable) but because they went with pistols when they should have had rifles, and their opponents did use at least one rifle. Even just 3 years later, our academy instructors were stressing the importance of taking a long gun if we had any reason to expect a fight; that slugs were the default choice for a service shotgun, and that rifles were an even better choice.
SuperMan
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Dear Doug...don't know where you were in 1986 but I had 10 years in will Dallas PD when the Miami shootout took place...and with the 80+- gun fights a year we got into had an excellent understanding of terminal ballistics and what worked and what didn't...
As to the FBI not having the proper equipment at the scene...I believe every car had a shotgun, all of which were cased and on the back seat (along with their bullet proof vests). Ed Morales was the only one who got his shotgun into play and due to some bad tactics on his part ran right into a bullet intended for his supervisor. There were also M16s in one or two of the other stakeout cars that didn't make it to the scene...so the equipment was there...the mindset and tactics were not.
Bob
As to the FBI not having the proper equipment at the scene...I believe every car had a shotgun, all of which were cased and on the back seat (along with their bullet proof vests). Ed Morales was the only one who got his shotgun into play and due to some bad tactics on his part ran right into a bullet intended for his supervisor. There were also M16s in one or two of the other stakeout cars that didn't make it to the scene...so the equipment was there...the mindset and tactics were not.
Bob
photoman
Member
Gotta love that CorBon 115. Those have been loaded very hot from day one and still are. They have a great street record.
photoman
Member
I've seen one or two carry SIG's. They generally carry whatever they want to carry... but like you said... mostly 1911's.
+1
As a matter of fact I do love the Corbon 115 +p. I went through a number of different SD rounds and man I just love the way it comes out of my 9FS. I don't feel any difference in felt recoil from a non +p and it hits target and no malfunctions.
I keep the M&P loaded with it beside my bed. I like it hot and the the barrier penetration is a plus in case I need to go through a door or wall.
In my humble opinion, a great round.
Doug M.
Member
SuperMan, you were a cop, and in a cop agency. Feebies are criminal investigators, and watching them stop a car is cringe worthy. They also do not have near the number of unplanned conflict moments as cops do, so at least at that time, their training for such was ... iffy. My impression is that it is not much better now. Agencies that successfully dump a lot of bad guys tend to have a better institutional memory and understanding. I suspect that shot placement, the big variable, was better understood and trained at DPD. That said, we have had a lot of resources put into improving bullets since '86; handgun ammo still is a poor choice to take to a fight, but it does not suck as much as it did.
As you also know, there is not time to put on a vest and dig out that cased shotgun when the excrement starts flying in that manner it did there. Ed Mireles did a hell of a job, no doubt.
As you also know, there is not time to put on a vest and dig out that cased shotgun when the excrement starts flying in that manner it did there. Ed Mireles did a hell of a job, no doubt.
SuperMan
Member
If you have never seen it, this is a YouTube posting of the original FBI review. I've had a copy for about 25 years...the audio is a little worn but it is a good watch...
FBI After-Action Video Report on the 1986 Platt-Matix Gunfight
There is a lot more to it...but this is a good place to start...
Bob
FBI After-Action Video Report on the 1986 Platt-Matix Gunfight
There is a lot more to it...but this is a good place to start...
Bob
