Texas LEO: Off-Duty Shooting Question

[Texas Star]

Need some info for a novel. If a Dallas detective is on convalescent leave after a store shooting and he and his girlfriend are on his family's holiday land in rural East Texas, and two thugs show up and try to kill them:

If the couple return fire and if the thugs run to their truck and take off, can the couple legally continue to shoot? Why or why not? Can the detective still shoot, and the (civilian) girlfriend not?

Because the officer is off duty and in plain clothes, does this constitute attempted capital murder of a peace officer? The cop wouldn't know for sure why he and the girl were targeted or that he was known to his assailants.

In the store shooting, could the officer continue to fire if a suspect turns to flee? The public would still be at risk if the bandit escaped, and he might grab a hostage just out the door of a gas station. In this case, the cop was on duty, but in plain clothes. Just walked in as a customer and realized that a holdup was in progress. The crooks shot first. They fit the description of a team doing gas station holdups.

Have any of you handled such cases? What was the ruling?

And if any Dallas officers see this, can you still wear a revolver at work? Had a four-inch S&W M-66 in mind, with Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok .357 ammo. He could furnish the ammo, if that isn't the issued round, but approved. What revolver ammo is approved?

Thanks.

 

[Cyrano]

Don't kmow any of the answers, but can't wait to read the novel.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Question: If the couple return fire and if the thugs run to their truck and take off, can the couple legally continue to shoot? Why or why not? Can the detective still shoot, and the (civilian) girlfriend not?

Answer: It depends, but not likely. Is this self defense or attempted arrest, what level of force was used by the thugs?
How far are they away when they are hit and how much danger was their remining to the people or property? What time of say is it? Texas law is nore lenient on self defense at night.

Question: Because the officer is off duty and in plain clothes, does this constitute attempted capital murder of a peace officer? The cop wouldn't know for sure why he and the girl were targeted or that he was known to his assailants.

Answer: You assert that the thugs were trying to kill them, but how is this proven? You do not say if the thugs fired weapons point blank or were menacing and yelling threats 300 yards out in the driveway. If facts of a real attempt and proof were met than it likely would be attempted murder.

Question: In the store shooting, could the officer continue to fire if a suspect turns to flee? The public would still be at risk if the bandit escaped, and he might grab a hostage just out the door of a gas station. In this case, the cop was on duty, but in plain clothes. Just walked in as a customer and realized that a holdup was in progress. The crooks shot first. They fit the description of a team doing gas station holdups.

Answer: It depends, but the LEO probably could not technically fire at a fleeing BG where there was a high risk to innocent bystanders particularly were the danger materialized, but, in a close case, no one here would likely argue with success after the fact.

And if any Dallas officers see this, can you still wear a revolver at work?
I do not know any Dallas LEO's but many Houston LEO's carry Smith 357s. Hope it helps.

 

[Texas Star]

Thanks, guys.

I talked to a Dallas officer guarding a store over the holidays.

Briefly, he said that he could shoot a thug who turned to flee during a shootout, as he'd be a continuing danger, who might also seize a hostage. (The crook in the book actually turned as the sear released on the hero's M-66 .357, and the thug was struck in the back of the neck by the bullet.)

In the rural incident, the thugs opened fire from about 150 yards, using a .30/30 and an AK -47. The hero and the girl returned accurate handgun fire, the hero using a S&W M-629 .44 Magnum. The thugs then ran to their truck and fled.

The officer said that the couple could not fire at the retreating truck, unless the thugs continued to shoot from it. Time was early afternoon, but the villains were clearly trying to kill the couple.

The real officer added that only older Dallas cops using revolvers can still carry them. Also, some autos used by some, like Berettas, are now phased out in favor of SIG's, either 9mm or .357 SIG. P-239's are popular for off-duty wear. The 9mm duty load is an unusual 165 grainer! Given that 9mm load, I'd prefer a .357 SIG! The .357 SIG's are mainly P-229's, but I think he said that if the gun was bought on the open market (not via the dept.) one can wear the SIG-P-226 in .357.

If anyone knows more, please post.

Oh: the charge of attempted capital murder of a police officer in the ambush by the truckers probably wouldn't hold in court unless the cops can show that the assailants KNEW their victim was an officer. (They did. And they knew that the girl might have the knowledge to solve another murder, as she knew the victim well. In fact, she was their primary target, lest she recall anything that might solve that case.)

Because my hero is in a special investigative unit that handles high profile crimes and pursues criminals deemed especially dangerous to the public, I may decide that he can carry the M-66. That unit might have unique rules. He also likes the M-60-4 .38 for off-duty carry. But I may relent and have him told to trade his S&W revolvers for SIG's.

Don't know what Dallas SWAT carries yet.

 

[TxShooter]

IIRC, DPD issues the P226R 9mm with the DAK trigger. DA/SA and .357 SIG are optional. I've seen a few carrying the all-stainless models. Back when A&E aired "Dallas SWAT" they had a gear section on the website. P226Rs and Colt M4s with EOTechs and SureFire Millenium foreends were standard.

 

[Out West]

The 9mm duty load is an unusual 165 grainer!

I've never heard of such a load. But have no information with which to dispute your source. I'm reading this and wondering how fast a 9mm with a 165 grn bullet would travel? 700 or 800 fps? On the surface it doesn't sound like a good loading for the 9. But what do I know about the DPD? Not much.

Out
West

 

[Beruisis]

If you qualify for a special unit, you should be permitted to carry whatever you want. Just my $.02.

 

[Texas Star]

If you qualify for a special unit, you should be permitted to carry whatever you want. Just my $.02.

Yeah, and that's one of the advantages to writing fiction. I can make up the rules for that unit, within reason.

But I want it to be pretty authentic, in the main.

I do want to confirm that 165 grain 9mm load. That sounds awfully slow. I don't even buy 147 grain loads for my own use. I like Speer's 124 grain Plus P round.

 

[GatorFarmer]

There are commonly encountered .40 SW offerings in 165 grain. Even google magic fails to turn up any mention of 9mm being made in this this bullet weight.

Anyway... no one is ever fleeing. There are simply moving to a more advantageous firing position. Save in those states where the fleeing felons rule is alive and well causing it to not really matter.

Rural East Texas? Heh. Do you really think a lot of questions will be asked in such a case?

 

[Texas Star]

There are commonly encountered .40 SW offerings in 165 grain. Even google magic fails to turn up any mention of 9mm being made in this this bullet weight.

Anyway... no one is ever fleeing. There are simply moving to a more advantageous firing position. Save in those states where the fleeing felons rule is alive and well causing it to not really matter.

Rural East Texas? Heh. Do you really think a lot of questions will be asked in such a case?

Yeah, I do, especially if this case overlaps one that began in Dallas, and it will.

The local sheriff is an honest fellow, and a Ranger may become involved. But the sheriff has known the hero and his parents for years, and will likely take a sympathetic view of the matter.

In the absence of reason to believe that one of the crooks was hit, I doubt that the hero and his lady will have to hand over their guns for evidence. They have spares, anyway.

BTW, the would-be assasins were duffers, illegal immigrants sent by a boss involved in the original murder. Real pros would have been more careful, but the killers did get a bad break when the heroes walked out of the woods unexpectedly while the bad guys thought they were in a cabin. Things went downhill for them from there.

At this point, I'm reserving judgement on the 165 grain 9mm. Many cops don't really know guns well, and the one with whom I spoke may have made a bad guess. If that bullet weight is correct, it must be a police contract load.

BTW, I'm watching the morning news, and DPD had two shootings last night. In one case, a female officer was disarmed after she drew her gun on a carjacker, and he escaped with her weapon. This was at Audelia Rd. and Forest Ln., if you know the city. In the other case, officer(s) killed someone else. No details on that one yet. Appears unrelated.