The 38 Super

[Art Doc]

Most 1911 discussions center around the 45 ACP but have an appreciation for the 38 Super cartridge. I have a Series '70 Colt Super and an RIA Government Model in nickel. I used to have a 1967 LW Commander in 38 Super but decided I preferred a full sized steel 1911.

Modern 38 Super ammo is woefully under powered. Mostly loaded to the same velocities as the old 38 ACP. Maybe liability concerns. Anyway, 1050 FPS in a 38 Super excites me not at all so I ignore factory ammo. I load 115 JHPs to 1450 FPS and they work fine. I went to 1525 at one point but that was too much. Recoil ion the alloy gun split an ivory grip panel. Still angry over that.

I keep some 130 grain pointed FMJ in case an attacker is wearing a vest. Known to defeat them.

 

[DWalt]

There is a great deal good about the .38 Super. Not at all difficult to reach .357 Mag or .357 SIG ballistics with bullets up to 130 grains if you handload and add some stout recoil springs. I find AA #5 is the ideal propellant to use for really hot loads (in 9x23 Win cases or similar) due to its high bulk density. I have gone to nearly 1500 ft/sec with 124 grain FMJ bullets. That's hot enough for me. Routinely I load to around 1250-1300 ft/sec.

 

[BearBio]

For a while, I had a '51 Commander in 38 Super as my EDC. Just a little too hard to conceal for me.

 

[colt_saa]

I too am a fan of the 38 Super cartridge and I own several firearms chambered for it. I am even in the middle of building a 38 Super Detonics for pocket carry

I have never purchased any ammunition that is watered down nor have I hand loaded any

I have found that my 38 Supers are much more accurate than their 9MM brothers. They even sound better when being fired.

While it never really caught on, you could convert your 38 Super to fire 9x23 Winchester.

When Colt failed to sell the 9x23 Chambered 1911s they offered the top ends with one magazine at a VERY nice price. Back then I built up this one on a spare stainless frame that I had.

This cartridge operates at 55,000 PSI and is just wonderful to shot. The exterior of the cartridge is the same dimensions as the 38 Super so all steel framed guns are potential donors for conversion. However, the interior of the cartridge is significantly different. Winchester claims this is the strongest hand gun brass they had ever made (statement was before the S&W 500s came out).

The standard factory load is a 124/125 grain projectile that safely chronographs out of my 1911 right at 1500 FPS. The original loadings were with WAP

The 9x23 Winchester even shines in revolvers'. I not have two 8 shot 627s that are set up for 9x23 Winchester

Both of these revolvers have their original 357 Magnum cylinder untouched. I rechambered a second cylinder for each gun.

I just recently setup the 627 V-comp thinking it might make a nice revolver for pin shooting. There should be plenty of gas volume to make the comp effective

 

[CH4]

I love the 38s. Definitely an under appreciated cartridge.

 

[Valmet]

Long time .38 Super fan here. I’d love to have a LW Commander .38 Super that isn’t a $2k Colt. Not a fan of the bob-tail on the Dan Wesson.

 

[DWalt]

While it never really caught on, you could convert your 38 Super to fire 9x23 Winchester.

No conversions are needed to use 9x23 Win or any other rimless 9x23 case in a .38 Super pistol. My Colt and my EAA Witness both handle any 9x23 cartridge just fine with no changes in chambering or magazines. Good idea to have a heavy recoil spring for heavy loads. I have read that some believe it's not a good idea, but never why. I have fired many thousands of hot 9x23 loads through my .38 Supers without incident. Case dimensional differences between the 9x23 and .38 Super are negligible, aside from a slight taper in the 9x23 case and lack of a semi-rim. I usually reload 9x23 cases using a .38 Super die set.

 

[rockquarry]

I had two Colts in .38 Super about thirty-five or more years ago. I worked with cast bullets extensively and neither gun was particularly accurate. However, I understand the newer guns shoot much better.

With the .38 Super, muzzle velocities can exceed that of the 9mm with similar bullet weights by about 150 fps, maybe a little more. I've never been impressed with the 9mm cartridge, but does 150 fps or even 200 (if that's possible and safe) make the .38 Super that much better a cartridge? I don't know...

 

[DWalt]

I had two Colts in .38 Super about thirty-five or more years ago. I worked with cast bullets extensively and neither gun was particularly accurate. However, I understand the newer guns shoot much better.

Older .38 Super barrels headspaced on the case semi-rim. Newer ones headspace on the case mouth which is better. Never figured out why the older .38 pistols weren't designed for case mouth headspacing from the beginning.

 

[Rock185]

My experience with 9X23 Winchester in .38 Super pistols is similar to DWalt's. I haven't shot thousands of rounds of 9X23 Win., but have used factory and reloaded 9X23 with no issues whatsoever in my pistols.

Using well supported, ramped, barrels in 1911 type pistols, duplicating factory 9X23 Win. factory ballistics in 38 Super/Super Comp brass is easily achieved. I do prefer the relatively slow AA-9 powder for top loads.

FWIW, experimenting with Col. Cooper's Super 9/"Super Cooper" cartridge years ago, I got to 1625 FPS with a 115 grain bullet before deciding that was enough. I've not done that with 9X23, but suspect it could be done without bending or breaking anything if one desired.

 

[DWalt]

My experience with 9X23 Winchester in .38 Super pistols is similar to DWalt's. I haven't shot thousands of rounds of 9X23 Win., but have used factory and reloaded 9X23 with no issues whatsoever in my pistols.

Using well supported, ramped, barrels in 1911 type pistols, duplicating factory 9X23 Win. factory ballistics in 38 Super/Super Comp brass is easily achieved. I do prefer the relatively slow AA-9 powder for top loads.

FWIW, experimenting with Col. Cooper's Super 9/"Super Cooper" cartridge years ago, I got to 1625 FPS with a 115 grain bullet before deciding that was enough. I've not done that with 9X23, but suspect it could be done without bending or breaking anything if one desired.

The only concern about using a rimless case in a .38 Super barrel is if it is chambered to headspace on the case mouth. I have a long story about the 9x23 Win as I went through a period in evaluating it as a possible caliber for use in a proposed new USAF pistol back in the mid-2000s. I still have a good supply of 9x23 Win brass (supplied to me by Winchester) back then along with several hundred leftover factory-handloaded rounds using the M882 124 grain FMJ bullet. At that time the then-USAF Chief of Staff decided he wanted his troops to have a handgun more powerful than the M9 Beretta. But he lost his job and that was the end of the project. I was doing all sorts of experimentation with various propellants, charges, and bullets and AA #5 seemed to give the best performance with the M882's 124 grain bullet which we had decided to stick with. Winchester (and I) always used small rifle primers in the 9x23 due to the high working pressures. Winchester was using one of the slower-burning shotshell powders for their 9x23 Win factory loadings, but I don't remember which one. I probably have it in my notes.

 

[colt_saa]

No conversions are needed to use 9x23 Win or any other rimless 9x23 case in a .38 Super pistol. My Colt and my EAA Witness both handle any 9x23 cartridge just fine with no changes in chambering or magazines. Good idea to have a heavy recoil spring for heavy loads. I have read that some believe it's not a good idea, but never why. I have fired many thousands of hot 9x23 loads through my .38 Supers without incident. Case dimensional differences between the 9x23 and .38 Super are negligible, aside from a slight taper in the 9x23 case and lack of a semi-rim. I usually reload 9x23 cases using a .38 Super die set.

I will partially disagree with you here on a few points.

First, if a heavier spring is required before shooting full power loads, that is a conversion. It may be a tiny one, but it is one.

Secondly, a smaller radius firing pin stop should also be chosen for the 1911, as it slows the slide down while it cycles

Third, while I agree that most (but not all) barrels will be just fine, the barrel needs to be checked for how it supports the case before shoving a magazine of factory 9x23 Winchester into the pistol.

Obviously the magazines can be 38 Super even though Colt has manufactured 9x23 marked magazines

I too use 38Super dies for my hand loading and I load Winchester Silhouette (WAP) powder

The only conversion to my 38Super Witness was a spring change

 

[Buford57]

I'm a fan

 

[22hipower]

Yes, 1911 38 Supers are interesting and fun. I've got to take some better pictures one of these days but here is my blue pre-war, a poorly nickeled pre-war, a Series 70 and my latest the new "Series 70" Commander with the dual recoil spring. The newest one shoots well; don't think I've ever gotten around to fire the others, maybe one of these days.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[Walter Rego]

I have a 1948 "Fat Barrel" variation Colt Super .38. Accuracy is OK but I'm sure it could do better with a custom barrel and bushing. I only shoot factory ammo in it.

I sure wish the current production Colt Government Models were on the so called approved roster here in CA. I'd like to have a modern example with the correctly chambered barrel to shoot. That 1948 example is too valuable to pound with hot loads.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

I bought a new Colt Government model in 38 Super auto three or four years ago.

Shortly thereafter I discovered that it runs really fat and happy with a 147 grain Hornady XTP, Bullet # 35580 on top of 7.4 grains of Blue dot. I liked it so much that since then I have purchased a Les Baer Custom carry in the same round that I am liking quite a bit as well.

 

[M E Morrison]

have you looked at Buffalo Bore for a more intense loading?

 

[DWalt]

I have a 1948 "Fat Barrel" variation Colt Super .38. Accuracy is OK but I'm sure it could do better with a custom barrel and bushing. I only shoot factory ammo in it.

I sure wish the current production Colt Government Models were on the so called approved roster here in CA. I'd like to have a modern example with the correctly chambered barrel to shoot. That 1948 example is too valuable to pound with hot loads.

While I know what the Fat Barrel is, I don't know if it is possible to use a newer .38 Super barrel (with case mouth headspace) and bushing with the old .38 Super slide. For my Colt (.45), I purchased a new SA 9mm slide and both .38 Super and 9mm barrels for use on my Colt frame. The SA slide fit the Colt frame perfectly with no hand fitting needed. Note that a 9mm ejector is also needed to change from .45 to 9mm/.38S. There was a local guy who was rechambering 9x19 barrels to .38 Super and 9x23 Win (using case mouth headspace), but that was over 10 years ago. That was Elmer Ballance, the original founder of Springfield Armory which was formerly located only a couple of blocks from my home in San Antonio. He may be no longer living.

 

[Old Corp]

When I acquired my RIA 1911A1 5" in .38 Super, I was doing so mainly because I was so interested in the cartridge.
Already had a plethora of 1911's in .22, 9mm, 10mm and .45, so that .38 niche needed filling.

After researching and developing real .38 Super loads that work great in the supported chamber of the RIA I really came to enjoy it.
Being already '9mm poor' with far too much hardware in that caliber I had no desire for watered down .38 Super ammo.

First I used up some old Speer .355" 90 gr. JHP's with very healthy doses of Blue Dot. I have no chrono, but they were screamin' fast and no pressure signs on the recovered brass.

Most since then have been 115 and 124/5 gr. JHP's being pushed in the 1450 range. Group great and mild recoil.

I'd like to experiment with 147 gr (probably Hornady XTP's) and use it to take one of our small framed Whitetail deer in my area.

I've handgun hunted quite a bit and go about it as a bowhunter would.
I believe with the right bullet and decent placement, the Super would do a good job.

Anyone here taken game with the .38 Super?

 

[cherrypointmarine]

I have a Tanfoglio Witness III in 38Super . It's one of my favorite and most accurate . I don't reload , fixing to rectify that , so I have to shoot what I get . Waiting for Atlanta Arms to start up again and get some of their elite ammo .