The attraction of heavily "used & abused" pistols...

[grcoffman104]

Take a walk thru the Texas Ranger museam in Waco Tx.
Hundreds of worn, engraved, large frame revolvers and old autos. Each ding, worn off blued spot is a story....if only they could talk.

 

[TTSH]

Wow!!! So many good answers!!!

Holy cow! Too many good answers to reply individually to them all! Thank you! Let me address just a few of the issues raised for clarity...

First off, I do understand the draw of used guns. At least 2/3rds of the guns I've purchased in the last 2 years were used guns. Not necessarily old guns... just used guns. But only a small percentage of those used guns were "used & abused" guns (the TTSH technical terminology for guns distressed, usually mainly cosmetically, to some noteworthy degree). And of that small percentage that were "used & abused" guns, less than half of them were bought that way knowingly and intentionally. The other half were my duds and mistakes.

Secondly, old guns are different than just plain used guns. Yes, most old guns are used guns... but used guns are not necessarily old guns. I don't consider my 3rd Gen collection to be old guns. The way I see it, old guns are those that are older than me... although I'll accept the 50 year old C&R criteria as close enough. But to be 100% clear, I'm not asking about the (obvious) attraction of certain old guns. I'm asking about the attraction of relatively modern used guns found in "used & abused" condition.

So now, after clearing that up, it's pretty obvious from the responses that financial matters are a big part of the draw of what I call "used & abused" guns. But a close second seems to be the "knock around" factor or the "pure functionality" factor or some combination of both. These guns are obviously being bought for use, not show.

Some are being bought for restoration. The 5906 posted by armorer951 looks brand spanking new. Could that have ever really been a "used & abused" gun by my definition? A truly distressed gun? It's hard to imagine it by the way it looks now (a tribute to armorer951 and to stainless steel 3rd Gens in general)!

It doesn't look like many are being bought for investment or resale or collectability or as parts guns. Not many responses cited the gun's prior history or the "stories it could tell" as a reason for buying. Some clearly like the "distressed" look... which is probably why S&W is putting our brand new guns with that purposely distressed look right out of the box.

Again, I am talking "used & abused" modern guns. Not old guns. Not C&R's. Not antiques. Not historically significant guns. I guess I am mainly talking about used cop trade-in guns since that is probably the number one source. It certainly was for at least 2 or 3 of my own "used & abused" 3rd Gens.

Anyway, thanks again to all. I appreciate every response. Even the ones from Bam-Bam.

 

[CQB27]

My favorite revolver as of late, hardly any bluing left on it. I like the look of well worn guns, "working guns". It takes some real effort to gracefully age a gun.

 

[Arik]

lBut only a small percentage of those used guns were "used & abused" guns (the TTSH technical terminology for guns distressed, usually mainly cosmetically, to some noteworthy degree).

I don't see those as being abused. Cosmetic defects are not abuse unless you consider the actual use of the gun to be abuse. Lots of people have perfect looking guns that have been used to test loads and just fired a lot. That may be abuse but they look good cause they sit in a safe. On the other hand I wear my gun every day and it develops finish wear and cosmetic defects but internally it's no where near abused

 

[pmosley]

 

[kaveman]

I have a general dislike for anything new,.....excepting maybe things like tooth brushes. I don't know if it's because I was raised with hand-me-downs or if it is because I have always collected beyond my means. Doesn't matter,.....I don't like things crispy new even if they're old. Guns are supposed to BE used so they're supposed to LOOK used. I wouldn't make a very good coin collector.

I have a couple of friends who are 'condition' collectors. They can spend hours explaining why something is 98% and most definitely NOT 98.5%,......and they seem to be overly fascinated by boxes. They're good guys but I have a difficult time seeing them as 'gun guys'. I sometimes wonder if they're just misplaced stamp collectors.

If I have anything 100% new I feel compelled to keep it 100% new,.....and I won't do that. I'd rather get rid of the blasted thing. When I was first getting started I enjoyed spending the time cleaning up and primping each individual acquisition and condition was maybe a little more important to me then, but I got over that about two thousand guns ago. I've always been more interested in the mechanical aspects and history of firearms than in the aesthetics. A nib gun of any vintage holds nothing for me.

 

[grcoffman104]

When I was a rookie (70's) the old hands guns had the blue wore off from holster wear and standing with hand on backstrap. A common resting position in the day with meadum or low ride holsters.
Thus a gun is not a gun to me without something worn off. Stainless and autos then arrived. Things change.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I have wanted a S&W 952-1 since I first read about them. Recent auctions had one that was mint, new, unfired since it left the factory, I felt that if I bought her I would be robing a collector a prize but I bid on it at $2,400 and watcher her go up until she sold for over 3,400. There was another on on the auction site she was listed a used, "as is no returns". I was elated, obviously right down my alley, buy now price was $2,600 and I bought her. I felt that I could shoot her without remorse as no collector would want her.

Today I receiver her in the mail and was immediately disappointed when I opened her aluminum case. She was in mint condition, may have been fired once or twice, the only wear was a little shine on the sights that was gone with a tooth pick and cold blue.

My first question was "Should I shoot her?" I decided that since she was listed as used 'as is' I could definitely shoot her. The temp outside is about 7 degrees and the sun is bright but I could see the targets pretty good. I shot 15 rounds, all were within a 5" group at 88 yards.

I still feel a little guilty shooting her but will somehow manage. I now know that the 952-1 is a delight to shoot, very accurate and a joy to hold.

Sometimes those of us that buy a pistol to shoot just have to suffer!! (sniff)

 

[Big Shrek]

And then, there's those of us who find a nice older pistol,
that's been left out in the void, or just stored stupidly...
and think, hrm...Wonder what it'd shoot like??
Then test that first...if it shoots well, it then becomes a
candidate for restoration or hotrodding

There's a Hi-Standard Model B that I've polished to a fine
stainless steel shine...but I'm thinking about gold ceracoat
it shoots like a dream, and would be worthy of a gold wrap!!

 

[G.T. Smith]

I try to take care of my guns but if they get used and worn then so be it. I'm thinking about getting something to fix up. A rifle or hand gun, it don't matter to me. Worn is fine. I just totally disassembled a Colt 1908 vest pocket .25 that probably hadn't ever been farther apart than a field strip. 94 years of stuff in there and the gun was running smooth and reliable. I like the look of a used and worn finish on a gun.
Peace,
Gordon

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

There is the price factor, but also the knowledge something like a rescue dog that many here know how to save and get "abused" guns comfortably functional internally if not pretty again. Not in my skill set, but I have also seen some amazing finish restorations of guns by folks here over the last 15+ years. Something about taking care of some quality firearms that are no longer made and saving them for the future.

 

[TTSH]

I don't see those as being abused. Cosmetic defects are not abuse unless you consider the actual use of the gun to be abuse. Lots of people have perfect looking guns that have been used to test loads and just fired a lot. That may be abuse but they look good cause they sit in a safe. On the other hand I wear my gun every day and it develops finish wear and cosmetic defects but internally it's no where near abused

In post #32 above, I defined my preferred expression "used & abused" (as applied to modern firearms, not C&R's or antiques!) like so: "the TTSH technical term for guns distressed, usually mainly cosmetically, to some noteworthy degree."

Yes, I concede you are right. It is possible to abuse a modern gun and still have it appear outwardly to be pristine perfect. It's also possible to trash a modern gun outwardly and still have it function perfectly and safely.

I probably should have just used the expression "heavily distressed" for the title of this thread... but even then I'd have to explain further. It's about modern guns that you can still find in good to outstanding condition but choose to buy in some level of heavily used or distressed condition. That's what I was having a hard time trying to understand.

 

[TTSH]

Today I receiver her in the mail and was immediately disappointed when I opened her aluminum case. She was in mint condition, may have been fired once or twice, the only wear was a little shine on the sights that was gone with a tooth pick and cold blue.

Sometimes those of us that buy a pistol to shoot just have to suffer!! (sniff)

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how serious I should take your post!

 

[TTSH]

I'm with you, Tish. I like my guns shiny & unblemished, & I do my best to keep them that way. For the longest time the only blued gun I owned was a BHP. I could never find a blued 3rd Gen that didn't look worn out, even if the internals were perfect. Recently I found a near perfect Model 5904 at a reasonable price & snapped it up. I don't buy beat up ugly looking guns; I have no need of a "truck gun". For carry I have two poly pistols so that I'm not scratching or scuffing up my 3rdGens or my 1911. To each his own, this is what works for me.

Good to know that I have at least one other 3rd Gen aficionado on my side! Thank you! Now I don't feel so all alone.

 

[18DAI]

The main attraction, for me, is that they are usually quite inexpensive. And if they are stainless steel, easily refinished, by hand.

And if they are LE trade ins, odds are in your favor that it has been carried a lot and shot very little.......unless you have terrible luck........as I usually do.........and buy a gun that was issued to me. Regards 18DAI

 

[Arik]

In post #32 above, I defined my preferred expression "used & abused" (as applied to modern firearms, not C&R's or antiques!) like so: "the TTSH technical term for guns distressed, usually mainly cosmetically, to some noteworthy degree."

Yes, I concede you are right. It is possible to abuse a modern gun and still have it appear outwardly to be pristine perfect. It's also possible to trash a modern gun outwardly and still have it function perfectly and safely.

I probably should have just used the expression "heavily distressed" for the title of this thread... but even then I'd have to explain further. It's about modern guns that you can still find in good to outstanding condition but choose to buy in some level of heavily used or distressed condition. That's what I was having a hard time trying to understand.

When we're talking new guns and 3rd gens we're obviously talking about the last 30 years or so. Guns from the late 80s to now. So......when I'm buying the first thing I think of is does this fit a role. Can i/should I carry it? If it's a good gun that will fit that role and priced accordingly I'll buy it. If there are 2 and one is a lot cheaper because it has finish wear I'll buy that one. There have been a few guns that I bought cause of ammo or because the price was just too good to pass up. But otherwise if it turns out I don't like it for some reason I can trade it in without loosing a lot of money.

I guess the difference is in its intended use. If I just wanted to have them around I'd probably like them to be in better condition but since they'll be used I'm mainly concerned about function

 

[American1776]

What concerns me about buying used guns (good looking or beastly) is that I don't know what the previous owners have done with the gun. There are things you can look for to indicate abuse, but sometimes not everything can show up. Small hairline faults can develop in steel over time (from abuse, from being dropped, etc), and minus a chemical analysis of the whole gun, you can never tell if one day it will take a you-know-what when you need it most.
Case in point: The excellent HK P7M8 was the service weapon of the NJSP for around 18 years. They kept re-issuing the re-built guns to new troopers. It took a broken firing pin bushing that caused the death of a trooper for the department to find a new service weapon. The trooper only got 7 rounds out of his 9 shot pistol when the bushing broke, locking up the gun. He was murdered by a shotgun wielding psychotic.
Used guns can have hidden flaws that you'd never know about until you fire it and one day it gives up the ghost suddenly. Yes, new guns can come from the factory like that too, but I think it's much less likely.

For these reasons, I choose to buy new if I can.

 

[TTSH]

The main attraction, for me, is that they are usually quite inexpensive. And if they are stainless steel, easily refinished, by hand.

And if they are LE trade ins, odds are in your favor that it has been carried a lot and shot very little.......unless you have terrible luck........as I usually do.........and buy a gun that was issued to me. Regards 18DAI

Your post brings back memories of that totally-beat-to-heck Model 4506-1 I found at one of the last spring shows of 2015. It was an ex-cop gun that had been carried for something like 25 years and had just been traded. The outside was a worn out mess far beyond simple refinishing but the inside showed almost no signs of wear.

Sounds like a lot of folks here would have snapped it right up!

It didn't sell at the show. I made a lowball offer on it of $400 cash out the door a few weeks later via e-mail. Dealer countered with $450 (which was a lot lower than his initial show price), but I rejected it. As much as I wanted a Model 4506-1, I'd have never been happy with the brutally worn external appearance.

It must have sold at some point over the summer because he didn't have it with him at the September show. No regrets... but I still don't own Model 4506-1.

 

[TTSH]

When we're talking new guns and 3rd gens we're obviously talking about the last 30 years or so. Guns from the late 80s to now. So......when I'm buying the first thing I think of is does this fit a role. Can i/should I carry it? If it's a good gun that will fit that role and priced accordingly I'll buy it. If there are 2 and one is a lot cheaper because it has finish wear I'll buy that one. There have been a few guns that I bought cause of ammo or because the price was just too good to pass up. But otherwise if it turns out I don't like it for some reason I can trade it in without loosing a lot of money.

I guess the difference is in its intended use. If I just wanted to have them around I'd probably like them to be in better condition but since they'll be used I'm mainly concerned about function

Well, let's approach this a different way... and let's be specific to 3rd Gens or similar vintage pistols only: If those two "same model" guns sitting side-by-side in the dealer's display were priced the same and one appeared to be in better cosmetic shape than the other, would you choose the better looking gun? Or would you choose the one with more signs of usage, wear and character?

I still think most folks would choose the gun that appears to be in better condition all other things (including price) being equal. I base this, in part, on how used guns tend to sell at our largest MA dealer. Even when the cleaner gun is a little more money (it usually is), it tends to sell first before the otherwise identical sister gun. I've been caught in that situation many times... i.e., losing the better condition gun to a quicker buyer.

From that, I have to conclude that lower price is the main driving factor for those preferring to buy a somewhat distressed modern gun when the option is there for something better. Despite some of the responses above, I have to believe that intended use is more typically a secondary factor.

 

[TTSH]

For these reasons, I choose to buy new if I can.

The trouble is... most brand new pistols these days are plastic. The all-metal ones that are still left and available to us here in MA are either: a) already in my collection, or, b) cost too much money for me to afford them.

I still say plastic is fine for true pocket guns, but anything bigger and I really prefer to own all-metal.

 

[Inusuit]

I also collect and use a variety of knives. I'm a member of knife-specific forum. Posters there often induce a forced patina which they believe enhances the aesthetics of the knife.

A majority of the firearms I own, in excess of 100, were purchased used. I have a British Enfield that clearly shows stock/forend wear where some Tommy carried it at the point of balance. I own a Colt 1903 with a lot of wear and a 1917 Savage totally innocent of blue but no corrosion or "abuse" which incidentally is different from honest wear. The 1917 Savage was allegedly carried by a rural mailman in the 1920s. These firearms have a story that will probably never be told in detail, but I enjoy holding and shooting them, then speculating on the back story.

That said, my EDC guns, a Shield 9 and a Glock 19 were purchased new and thoroughly tested for reliability before going in the holster.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[BAM-BAM]

In post #32 above, I defined my preferred expression "used & abused" (as applied to modern firearms, not C&R's or antiques!) like so: "the TTSH technical term for guns distressed, usually mainly cosmetically, to some noteworthy degree."



I probably should have just used the expression "heavily distressed" for the title of this thread... but even then I'd have to explain further. It's about modern guns that you can still find in good to outstanding condition but choose to buy in some level of heavily used or distressed condition. That's what I was having a hard time trying to understand.

This has been a fun thread.........let me flip it a bit..................

I've told the story before...........in the late 80s I didn't have a lot of guns.....but enough ...... with the introduction of the 3rd Gen Autos..... I found myself transitioning from L/K-frame revolvers to autos for my everyday needs. Throughout the 90s I'd traded off several revolvers as "redundant " to my "needs" only holding on the my 3" 66s and a single 4" customized 686-0; which met my concealed and open carry revolver needs.

About 2000 I realized I no longer owned any 2 1/2" or 4" 19/66s..... guns that are a staple IMHO in any collection or safe. I decided I needed to correct this oversight in my accumulation of S&Ws.

No problem right; hundreds of thousands made.....for the past 20 years there had always one or more in any LGS's case on any given visit...... well by 2000 there weren't any "really nice" 66/19s to be found in any LGS within 50 miles of home.

Between Y2K, the assault weapons ban, the 2008 election, and calls for more "reasonable gun control"......folks were holding on to what they had.

It took me about 8-9 years to find (locally) the 66/19s in 95%+ condition that I wanted.

However in the first 3-4 years of my search I did find both a 4" 66-1 and 19-4...... but only in " OK to nice" Shooter's Grade...... which I bought because .... well..... I'd been looking for several years without success for "really nice" specimens.


My point is; sometimes one buys what one can find...... not exactly what you want.....because while it seems like you should be able to find what you want pretty easily...... that's not always the case.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Well, let's approach this a different way... and let's be specific to 3rd Gens or similar vintage pistols only

I still think most folks would choose the gun that appears to be in better condition all other things (including price) being equal.

Well...ya!!!!!!

But if the price is higher on the "nicer" gun..... you apply the now infamous (thanks to TTSH) BAM-BAM formula...... to see if the higher price will amortize over what, to quote TTSH; "what few good years you have left" !!!!!!!

 

[Duelist]

Your post brings back memories of that totally-beat-to-heck Model 4506-1 I found at one of the last spring shows of 2015. It was an ex-cop gun that had been carried for something like 25 years and had just been traded. The outside was a worn out mess far beyond simple refinishing but the inside showed almost no signs of wear.

Sounds like a lot of folks here would have snapped it right up!

It didn't sell at the show. I made a lowball offer on it of $400 cash out the door a few weeks later via e-mail. Dealer countered with $450 (which was a lot lower than his initial show price), but I rejected it. As much as I wanted a Model 4506-1, I'd have never been happy with the brutally worn external appearance.

It must have sold at some point over the summer because he didn't have it with him at the September show. No regrets... but I still don't own Model 4506-1.

I would have bought it, and hope to find one similar if I ever get serious about having a .45 again.

I have a 3913LS that has a couple of tiny frame edge marks, and just traded into a more worn and older 3913 that will probably start to get carried instead to prevent wear on the LadySmith.

 

[TTSH]

My point is; sometimes one buys what one can find...... not exactly what you want.....because while it seems like you should be able to find what you want pretty easily...... that's not always the case.

Okay, I get that. In fact, that helps account for the small percentage of my 3rd Gen collection that are something less than one would hope for condition-wise. I'll defend myself by citing both my retired old man's dire economic status and how difficult it is to find non-importable guns in my loony moonbat state.

But what I am seeing in multiple forum threads are folks in non-restricted "free" states purposely buying dubious condition cop trade-ins and re-imports when I know for a fact (by their other posts) that they can obviously afford much better. That is what's so confusing to me.

Let's sum it all up in one simple question: What the hang is the big draw of "used & abused" 3rd Gen cop trade-ins for members here that we both know can find and afford much, much better?

Well...ya!!!!!!

But if the price is higher on the "nicer" gun..... you apply the now infamous (thanks to TTSH) BAM-BAM formula...... to see if the higher price will amortize over what, to quote TTSH; "what few good years you have left" !!!!!!!

Now, you know that I live and die these days by the infamous "Bam-Bam Formula"... ... but I'm not so sure it applies in this case. Let me ask you this: What is the real net "all-in" cost savings to a 3rd Gen aficionado wanting a common, everyday 3rd Gen between going excellent condition via a shop or show (or GB) buy vs. going dubious condition via a cop trade-in or re-import purchased through the net?

When all is said and done, is there really that big a difference? Including all related costs? And taking into account resale value?

Again, that's what I have a tough time resolving in my half-senile old mind.

 

[TTSH]

I would have bought it, and hope to find one similar if I ever get serious about having a .45 again.

I have a 3913LS that has a couple of tiny frame edge marks, and just traded into a more worn and older 3913 that will probably start to get carried instead to prevent wear on the LadySmith.

At least you sound somewhat concerned over pistol wear and cosmetic condition.

I did manage to snag a top condition used Model 4506 (No Dash) in late-August... but I paid a lot more than $400 or $450 for it. I'm not exactly crying over not owning a Model 4506-1 yet... that day will come before I take the long dirt nap I'm sure. Well, at least I'm pretty sure.

It's possible that I made a mistake not grabbing that super-"used & abused" Model 4506-1 for $450. Only time will tell.

 

[arjay]

Maybe some of us have the disease so bad that a beat up gun causes us to react like some of the women I know when confronted with a one eyed three legged mutant puppy lol

 

[BAM-BAM]

Okay, I get that.

Let's sum it all up in one simple question: What the hang is the big draw of "used & abused" 3rd Gen cop trade-ins for members here that we both know can find and afford much, much better?


Now, you know that I live and die these days by the infamous "Bam-Bam Formula"... ... but I'm not so sure it applies in this case. Let me ask you this: What is the real net "all-in" cost savings to a 3rd Gen aficionado wanting a common, everyday 3rd Gen between going excellent condition via a shop or show (or GB) buy vs. going dubious condition via a cop trade-in or re-import purchased through the net?

When all is said and done, is there really that big a difference? Including all related costs? And taking into account resale value?

Again, that's what I have a tough time resolving in my half-senile old mind.

See my post #52..... sometimes if you want a particular model gun(and you plan to shoot it not just collect) you have to buy what you can find !!! (personally I don't buy online/ and if I understand correctly; you can't unless it's on the list).

I bought two "shooter grade"* 4" Models 19-? and 66-1.....both P&R'ed ....because after 2-3 years of looking I hadn't seen any better guns for sale..... so I "settled" for the "bird in the hand" thing...... but kept looking ..... only once did I "trade up"** a "really nice" 19-(P&R) for a minty/nib 2 1/2" 19-4......

I got the "finished worn" 915 and 6904 ...... for the same reason...... 915s were only made for 2 years the 6904 not much longer IIRC... prices were right ..nice shooters... and didn't expect to stumble over nicer ones any time soon.


* Don't get me wrong they weren't abused .... but showed signs of being carried and used.

** I was lucky to be looking for six-shooters while the world around me was still fixated on Black Plastic, hi-cap "Wonder-9s" and .40's "short & weak"!

 

[TTSH]

Maybe some of us have the disease so bad that a beat up gun causes us to react like some of the women I know when confronted with a one eyed three legged mutant puppy lol

The sympathy factor???

Well, I suppose that's a possibility!

 

[Ed Fowler]

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how serious I should take your post!

All joking aside I cleaned and lubricated my 952-1 then shot her yesterday, I felt very guilty! While she shot well and looks to be as accurate as my P 210's, cleaned her after 15 rounds and carefully put her back in her case. I fear that first scratch, but love her dearly. Someone took very good care of her and now it is my responsibility. Her serial no is KAZ 1436, I also feel sorry for her being left in some safe as well as for the owner who did not get to enjoy her pleasures.

It may be that her original owner knew great pleasure just looking at her and I have to accept the fact that we all have our private joys and we have to respect the sentiment of others.

I guess that another way to put it, if I was married to a beauty queen I would still expect her to help me feed cows in the winter time.