I imagine it's an often asked question, but I'm at the point where I want a 9mm that shoots straight, very straight, and there are too many choices. So far it seems that the best of the best are the S&W 952 long slide and the Sig p210 Legend. If I was to choose between these two which would you recommend and why?
The Best Target 9MM
- Thread starter marklwoolsey
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I would buy a SIX X-5 or X-6 myself.
I do not like the feel of the P210. Though it is a very fine firearm. I have a 952 and have never been thrilled with how it grouped. I have tried many factory and hand loads with mediocre success (for a target gun). My Walther P88 produces tighter groups in most shooters hands and it is supposed to be a combat firearm. However, the 952 is a very beautiful pistol.
My X-family firearms (I have 6 variations now) are outstanding shooters with almost any ammunition I feed them.
I also have a Colt Gold Cup in 9MM that is an exceptional performer.
Mark ,Ive never shot the sig 9 competition guns. But Ive shot and own the S&W guns 5906 PPC guns and the 4-5 " service or IDPA models.All of these guns shoot 1" or less (once you determine the ammo) at 25 yrds and 2" give or take at 50 , the older guns seem to like the lighter bullets and the newer ones like 147 gr. I think the PC changed the barrels to accomodate the more popular 147 gr and the like later on. These are high cap guns that were originally for overseas but lots of guys got them as Target Champions with bomar type sights the ppc type all had aristocrate 3 positition so you may not want one. These do come up form sale fairly often especially 5".The 952 are the same gun in a single stack model 39 type frame Im sure they shoot the same. The deciding fact for me is price and service versus the sig or having a 1911 9mm custom amde by a builder. Have several of them they shoot the same as the Smiths just alot more to clean.Little heavier up front due to bull barrels and tungsten guide rods and the like but alot more money.For my 15 plus years of shooting 9s in ppc (which is purely an accuracy game)you cant beat the Smiths for price ,reliability,service.They are simply a shooting machine. I think right now there is a 6" for sale for around 1200/1300 dollars thats a really good price for what you get. If not mistaken arent the sigs 2000 plus. Good luck Im sure others will chime in.Bob
I have not seen a Legend yet, and I do not have a lot of experience with the 952. (I do have quite a bit of experience with the 52, which I suppose is similar.)
For bullseye shooting in the U.S., I wouldn't consider either my first choice. You can have a really nifty 1911in 9x19 built up that will shoot as well as either of the two you mention. It will probably make a better bullseye gun, in the long run. (JMHO. I am not as fond of the S&W's trigger action as I am of the 1911's.)
If you want a really nice 9mm just to shoot, P210s certainly are right up there. Mine has just a superb trigger. I can shoot it better than any other 9mm I've ever fired. It's a great gun. Unfortunately, nice 210s are hard to come by and very expensive when you find them. I think you can have a top-notch 9x19 1911 built for considerably less money, and not have to worry about repairs and replacement parts. 1911 stuff is everywhere.
Edit - I guess I didn't answer your question. I would buy the Legend, based on my expectation that it "might" outshoot the S&W, and that it very probably would have a better trigger action, if it is anything like my older 210.
For bullseye shooting in the U.S., I wouldn't consider either my first choice. You can have a really nifty 1911in 9x19 built up that will shoot as well as either of the two you mention. It will probably make a better bullseye gun, in the long run. (JMHO. I am not as fond of the S&W's trigger action as I am of the 1911's.)
If you want a really nice 9mm just to shoot, P210s certainly are right up there. Mine has just a superb trigger. I can shoot it better than any other 9mm I've ever fired. It's a great gun. Unfortunately, nice 210s are hard to come by and very expensive when you find them. I think you can have a top-notch 9x19 1911 built for considerably less money, and not have to worry about repairs and replacement parts. 1911 stuff is everywhere.
Edit - I guess I didn't answer your question. I would buy the Legend, based on my expectation that it "might" outshoot the S&W, and that it very probably would have a better trigger action, if it is anything like my older 210.
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A dear friend of mine in Idaho Falls has a 952 that shoots CCI Blazer (aluminum case) incredibly well. Over a rest at 35 yards we are able to routinely get 10 shot strings to measure 3/4 of an inch and less repeatedly from 3-4 different shooters.
Maybe a call to S&W is in order?
Randy
Maybe a call to S&W is in order?
Randy
wantmoresmiths
Member
Let me offer another option. Have you considered a Les Baer in 9mm. I own a Premier II in .45ACP and the accuracy is unbelievable. If you check out any of the 1911 sites, (1911forum.com or forumM1911.org)or the Brian Enos (competition shooters) site you will find a quite a number of people who rave about the Les Baer pistols. The common theme among these shooters is "the Les Baer pistols are one of the best values out there". "You can spend a lot more money on a custom gun, and not find any better accuracy". You might even want to see if there is a Bullseye shooters forum. I would think they would share the same opinion about the Les Baer pistols. The best deals on the Baer pistols are usually through one of his distributors who goes under the name of "Pro-Load". I believe they are located in Montana. You can even order one with a 1.5" (IIRC 50 yard) accuracy guarantee.
I've had very good accuracy with a number of different factory loadings and handloaded rounds out of my 952-2. I can't claim a lot of experience with other specialized target 9mms, but have had no complaints about this one, and reliability has been perfect.
I have a Model 952-2 set up for bullseye identically to my Model 52-2. Using 150 grain LSWCs with an appropriately constructed load (crimp, OAL, powder) the 952 is as accurate as my 52 shooting 148 grain HBWCs. With both I can easily get 5 shot groups of 1" at 25 yards off sand bags.
To get the 952 to shoot well you need three things: get the TP pull and over travel to be the same as a 52, use the right load, and use a good quality optical sight. Both of my guns have TPs of 2.5 lb and Ultradot L/T optics on them with BME mounts.
BTW the 952 is a little easier to shoot well because the slide cycles faster so follow through is not as critical as it is with a 52.
Photos of both guns attached.
To get the 952 to shoot well you need three things: get the TP pull and over travel to be the same as a 52, use the right load, and use a good quality optical sight. Both of my guns have TPs of 2.5 lb and Ultradot L/T optics on them with BME mounts.
BTW the 952 is a little easier to shoot well because the slide cycles faster so follow through is not as critical as it is with a 52.
Photos of both guns attached.
Attachments
You might want to peek at some of STI's offerings.
See Mark ,Everyones likes dislikes experiences differ. What you have to decide is .DONT BE IN A HURRY !!!!
What do I want the pistol for, just fun accurate shooting,do I need a gun to shoot 1" at 25yrds,is 2-3" ok for my needs,Bullseye(you will probably want a 45 anyway),Action pistol,the 952/ppc S&W safety set-up really doesnt lend itself to this type of shooting,it can work,but sweeping a thumb UP and then regripping isnt the best.Using your offhand to sweep the safety is ok but not the best practice.So you need to decide what you want the pistol for,how versatile you want it to be.You can definitely do more adjustments with a 1911 type pistol,weight/grips/sight/ribs/etc.Sounds like you want a 9mm so there are alot of choices.
The best way to decide is to shoot the different guns,or at least feel them in your hand,try the trigger (if they will let you) and see how you like them.For instance my 1911s all have short triggers,otherwise I have to adjust my grip.If you buy a 1911 w/o a short trigger then have to have one installed =more money.There is not a company out there that makes a 1911 that will shoot comparable to the 952/ppc for the same money- period.I have shot and tested them all.Springfield/Les Baer/STI/Sig maybe shoot the same,but not better and all at or north of 2,000, some way north.
However if you decide you like an other make better, then it is worth the money to get what you want or what works best for you.THE FIRST TIME, at this price level try not to make too many changes.
YES someone may have gotten lucky and got an out of the box gun that shoots 1" at 25yds, but its rare. Ive seen 92fs's that will, but after afew thousand rounds they wont shoot 2". Its not an easy decision,most of us have spent thousands trying to figure it out.IF you have the money its easy buy several types for different uses.In todays world,,, Who has that money.Everyone here is trying to help you not have to do that.good luck Bob
What do I want the pistol for, just fun accurate shooting,do I need a gun to shoot 1" at 25yrds,is 2-3" ok for my needs,Bullseye(you will probably want a 45 anyway),Action pistol,the 952/ppc S&W safety set-up really doesnt lend itself to this type of shooting,it can work,but sweeping a thumb UP and then regripping isnt the best.Using your offhand to sweep the safety is ok but not the best practice.So you need to decide what you want the pistol for,how versatile you want it to be.You can definitely do more adjustments with a 1911 type pistol,weight/grips/sight/ribs/etc.Sounds like you want a 9mm so there are alot of choices.
The best way to decide is to shoot the different guns,or at least feel them in your hand,try the trigger (if they will let you) and see how you like them.For instance my 1911s all have short triggers,otherwise I have to adjust my grip.If you buy a 1911 w/o a short trigger then have to have one installed =more money.There is not a company out there that makes a 1911 that will shoot comparable to the 952/ppc for the same money- period.I have shot and tested them all.Springfield/Les Baer/STI/Sig maybe shoot the same,but not better and all at or north of 2,000, some way north.
However if you decide you like an other make better, then it is worth the money to get what you want or what works best for you.THE FIRST TIME, at this price level try not to make too many changes.
YES someone may have gotten lucky and got an out of the box gun that shoots 1" at 25yds, but its rare. Ive seen 92fs's that will, but after afew thousand rounds they wont shoot 2". Its not an easy decision,most of us have spent thousands trying to figure it out.IF you have the money its easy buy several types for different uses.In todays world,,, Who has that money.Everyone here is trying to help you not have to do that.good luck Bob
twomoons
Member
YOU KNOW GUYS,I COULD GET 1 INCH GROUPS WITH MY HK ELITE,
3/4 TO 1 INCH GROUPS WITH MY sig sports,comped and non comped.
and several other guns were 2 inches or less at 15 to 20 yards.hell,i shot a sig p6 last month,and that group was good.but i am looking for one nice ,sweet 1911 style 9mm.why??.i have the cash,and i always have wanted one.i really like the sw pro 1911. one came in in 45 acp.if it would have been a 9mm i would have bought it.but i always weigh,is a half inch better group worth a grand more for a gun.??
i always keep the cash and settle for 2 inches at30 to 40 feet.my little girl will need a car in a few years,and her smile will be worth more than a hafl inch group.
3/4 TO 1 INCH GROUPS WITH MY sig sports,comped and non comped.
and several other guns were 2 inches or less at 15 to 20 yards.hell,i shot a sig p6 last month,and that group was good.but i am looking for one nice ,sweet 1911 style 9mm.why??.i have the cash,and i always have wanted one.i really like the sw pro 1911. one came in in 45 acp.if it would have been a 9mm i would have bought it.but i always weigh,is a half inch better group worth a grand more for a gun.??
i always keep the cash and settle for 2 inches at30 to 40 feet.my little girl will need a car in a few years,and her smile will be worth more than a hafl inch group.
They still show the 9mm Pro on the website. I've looked at them in person, but don't know any target shooters who own one. I doubt they are intended to shoot with the 952, but who knows? I had considered one of those with the idea of possibly having a better barrel fitted if the gun did not shoot, but never carried through.
Product: Model SW1911
I understand your comment about the daughter and the first car!
trulyapostolic
Member
It depends on your price point and intended purpose. If you want to stay under 2k then the 952 is nice. I've owned a Sig X5-L1. Very nice gun, but NOT capable of shooting 2" groups at 50 yards. If you REALLY want the most accurate 9mm then have KC Crawford (KC's Kustom Creations) or David Sams (Sam's Custom Gunworks) build you a 9mm. It will group under 1" at 50 yards with the right ammo.
Ed Fowler
Member
I have two P 210's, a Legend and a Legend Target, I just purchased a 952-1. I shoot targets at 88 yards and 50 to 100 rounds a day.
I find very little difference in accuracy between the three. The rear sight on the Legend is not adjustable without a drift and more shallow than the rear sight on the Legend Target. Once you have it sighted it you are set.
The Legend Target has the adjustable rear sight and is easier to read than the Legend's rear sight for me.
Note to self: check the date on posts before responding!
The 952-1has a Wilson Combat adjustable rear sight that is very precise to adjust and a little easier for me to read.
I have shot thousands of rounds through the Legends and only about 400 through the 952. So far I find them about equal in accuracy, shooting them is good times and none are for sale or trade.
I feel they were all well worth the money for me. The grip on the 952 is very much to my liking, but I shot a mod 39 and 52 for years and my hand is used to it.
Any one of them will easily shoot a 10 shot 2" group at 50 yards if fed the right ammo. This is my experience as honestly as I can present it. If you have any questions, don't be bashful.
I find very little difference in accuracy between the three. The rear sight on the Legend is not adjustable without a drift and more shallow than the rear sight on the Legend Target. Once you have it sighted it you are set.
The Legend Target has the adjustable rear sight and is easier to read than the Legend's rear sight for me.
Note to self: check the date on posts before responding!
The 952-1has a Wilson Combat adjustable rear sight that is very precise to adjust and a little easier for me to read.
I have shot thousands of rounds through the Legends and only about 400 through the 952. So far I find them about equal in accuracy, shooting them is good times and none are for sale or trade.
I feel they were all well worth the money for me. The grip on the 952 is very much to my liking, but I shot a mod 39 and 52 for years and my hand is used to it.
Any one of them will easily shoot a 10 shot 2" group at 50 yards if fed the right ammo. This is my experience as honestly as I can present it. If you have any questions, don't be bashful.
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rck281
Member
The P210 Legend made in German has been discontinued. A fixed sighted one recently sold on GB for $3K. An Adjustable sighted 5" target model is being advertised for $4200. I have not seen the 6" Super Target for sale in years. It is rumored that US made P210 Legends will be available this year or next. My P210-6 Target model shoots very well.
I also have a 5" 952-2 that I really like.
However, my favorite target gun is my German made SIG X5. I like the heavier gun and the accuracy is unbelievable.
I would also look at the Les Baer target guns, if you like a 1911 style, and the EAA Witness Match. I have one in 38 Super that I love. Much like the X5 at a lower price.
I also have a 5" 952-2 that I really like.
However, my favorite target gun is my German made SIG X5. I like the heavier gun and the accuracy is unbelievable.
I would also look at the Les Baer target guns, if you like a 1911 style, and the EAA Witness Match. I have one in 38 Super that I love. Much like the X5 at a lower price.
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dakota1911
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If you do not want it off the rack them maybe a SA Range Officer in 9mm. That is at most a $800 something and has adjustable sights and a ramped barrel. Then send it off for a lot more work to give you the group at the distance you want. Even in their base form mine is good for 2 inch groups at 25 yards with cheap ammo over bags.
Probably not right out of the box........
A 1911 style pistol has potential to be tuned for excellent accuracy.
PS I know that's true for the .45 but I suppose it applies to the 9mm, too.
A 1911 style pistol has potential to be tuned for excellent accuracy.
PS I know that's true for the .45 but I suppose it applies to the 9mm, too.
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Ha! But it was a fun read, thanks for resurrecting it[emoji3]
Besides, if I had two p-210's, I'd be taking every chance I could to talk about them
Well done!
I'm biased and own an X-5, it is a hammer... there is also a difference b/w taking your time to shoot a 5 round group off a rest and shooting 5 rounds reasonably fast in a match... what might be best for one, does not follow it rocks in the hand best in rapid fire sequence,.... for me the x-5 and 6 do both
