The British Sten submachine gun

[les.b]

Cyrano:

Now that's a proper vehicle for going to the range!!! What a find. I've only seen those in African Safari movies!!! Are you sure that Victor Mature or Clark Gable is t somewhere around there?? Nice guns, too, Cyrano!! Like I said above, I've had a Sten, but only dreamed of a Sterling.

Best Regards, Les

 

[ACP230]

I have seen the name written as STen.
S and T for the designers and en for Enfield.

Of course, I can't recall where I saw that now.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

There was a war going on, they were not going to issue Beretta Imperiale Montecarlo Shotguns to everyone (you get the idea - forget they were Italian). Sten was an easily produced weapon to fill a big gap.

 

[Cyrano]

Mk II Stens were also produced in Canada and New Zealand (two different models of the Mk II in New Zealand). There's a great book on the Sten: 'The Sten Machine Carbine' by Peter Laidler, Collector Grade Publications.

 

[jimmyj]

My Experience :
In the early 1990s I was a Patrol Deputy with a small rural county Sheriffs Department . A new hire young Deputy was dating the second in command major. Thus He was allowed entre to most of the offices. In the armory in a dark corner he discovered a cardboard box of "Funny Looking" gun parts and was permitted to check out the box. He bought the box to me and I assembled the weapon which turned out to be a "Sten Gun" from along ago drug raid. I disassembled the Sten and He took it to a local Auto Parts store and had it "Dipped" in a vat (?) that removed the old painted finish. He then sprayed it with dollar store flat black paint and had me reassembled it. The Department practice ammo was reloads using home cast lead round nose bullets from a "Buddy" of the Sheriff. These reloads were the dirty and worst reloads I had ever seen. Most of the Deputies would not use these reloads in their personal or issue weapons. The Sten fired these reloads with negative problems and was easy to hold on target.

 

[jag312]

Biggest cause of jams was holding the magazine,your suppose to hold the perforated barrel jacket like a carbine. I have shot thousands of Rds out of the Sten Mk - 2 without problem.

The proper way to hold a STEN.

 

[walkinghorse]

Magazine Orientation

Anyone know why the side magazine orientation was chosen?
The German similar type is to the bottom.
Wonder if the side orientation of the magazine could have contributed to feeding issues?

 

[PALADIN85020]

Anyone know why the side magazine orientation was chosen?
The German similar type is to the bottom.
Wonder if the side orientation of the magazine could have contributed to feeding issues?

The side loading concept, first used by the Brits in the Lanchester SMG, was apparently adopted because it allowed the user to get closer to the ground when it was fired from the prone position. Also, the weight of the rounds in the magazine (vertical orientation) would be detrimental when and if the mag spring was weak and/or took a set from compression when the mag was left loaded for a long time.

At any rate, that was the thinking. By the way, here is a photo taken during the liberation of Paris during WWII. The resistance fighter is correctly avoiding holding his Sten by the magazine, but it's not clear if his finger is on the trigger. The American lieutenant (probably a newly minted butter bar) is violating protocol with his finger on the trigger of his .45 while pointing it at the resistance guy...

John

 

[triaxle]

Years back I remember a guy who flew C- 47 DC-3 over the hump ., he said if the natives waived they dumped Stens out the back to them , and if they shot we turn and got the hell out of their . Back then I guess they just came back state side , no one checked like now , he brought quit a few home . they looked new to me Long Branch 1943 .loop stock , and small mag loaders .

 

[colt_saa]

Biggest cause of jams was holding the magazine,your suppose to hold the perforated barrel jacket like a carbine. I have shot thousands of Rds out of the Sten Mk - 2 without problem.

This issue is not limited to older SMGs

I had the same issue with one of my MP5s on a demo day. It worked 100% for me and other attendees but was a jam-a-matic in the hands of some of the attendees.

We finally noticed that the folks having the jamming issues were using the magazine as a fore-grip while the folks having no troubles were correctly gripping the fore-end for they second hand

 

[Absalom]

John:

Have you ever come across anything definite about the finish or finishes used on the Sten?

In conjunction with determining the exact type of finish on wartime British revolvers, I’ve been a bit frustrated. Without wanting to offend anyone in particular, the knowledge pool about finishes among British militaria collectors seems exceedingly shallow, to put it politely, and nobody really knows what they‘re talking about.

The stovepaint-based suncorite, which seems not to have been used on handguns until post-war FTRs, has been mentioned as first appearing as the original finish on Stens in later 1944, although I don‘t recall the sources. Do you know anything further?

 

[Buford57]

Great article. Takes me back. A MKII was the only Class III I ever owned. It was fun while it lasted, but I acquired it in the last year before the kids started coming. In my mind it's like shooting muzzle loaders: some fall in love with it and others try it and say "well, I guess I can scratch that off the list". I'm in the second group with full auto stuff.

 

[Texas Star]

My son used a MP-5 to good effect in Iraq. I have a video of him firing it, but he has asked me not to post it. Doesn't want images with him or his family on the Net.

He found the gun to be quite reliable. Says the 9mm cartridge is more effective than many claim. He used it in both the MP-5 and in Beretta and Browning pistols.

In post No. 8 above, I mentioned a movie, "Safari". It's now on YouTube in the original English. (It's also been posted in Spanish. I thought member Leonardo Carrillo in Argentina might want to see it in his language.) Watch as Victor Mature's Sten changes from a MK II in some scenes to a MK III in others!

It's a very good film, made by some of the people who later made the James Bond films. Here it is:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn_WQwHFvyw[/ame]

 

[PALADIN85020]

John:

Have you ever come across anything definite about the finish or finishes used on the Sten?

In conjunction with determining the exact type of finish on wartime British revolvers, I’ve been a bit frustrated. Without wanting to offend anyone in particular, the knowledge pool about finishes among British militaria collectors seems exceedingly shallow, to put it politely, and nobody really knows what they‘re talking about.

The stovepaint-based suncorite, which seems not to have been used on handguns until post-war FTRs, has been mentioned as first appearing as the original finish on Stens in later 1944, although I don‘t recall the sources. Do you know anything further?

I've not thoroughly researched this subject. I do know that the wartime Mark IV Webleys were marked "WAR FINISH" on the left side of the frame. Webley was proud of its commercial-finish guns, and wanted it understood that the finish on these wartime revolvers was an exception and not up to its usual standards. I think this had more to do with lack of final finishing polish than the method used for chemical color treatment. I'm not aware of any specific standard British WWII finishing techniques.

John

 

[jag312]

Anyone know why the side magazine orientation was chosen?
The German similar type is to the bottom.
Wonder if the side orientation of the magazine could have contributed to feeding issues?

The German MP18 was the firearm that started the side magazine configuration. Rather than designing a magazine specifically for the MP18, they improvised the usage of the Luger snail drum magazine. While the snail drum magazine worked in a vertical position for a semiauto pistol, there were feeding problems for the relatively rapid fire MP18 when used in a vertical position. Mounting the magazine in a horizontal position minimized the feeding problems. When the MP28 was designed, the horizontal configuration was kept. So when the British copied the MP28 as the Lanchester, if the horizontal configuration worked for the Germans, then it must be right.

 

[Texas Star]

Re John's Post no. 34, I hope that all here will have the opportunity to see Webley guns in normal peacetime finish. Their bluing was sometimes superior to what S&W used at the time, especially in the early to mid 1950's.

Don't judge them by the finish on their military series of revolvers, Marks 1-6. Their commercial guns were far better finished. Models like the WG and the Wilkinson-Webleys were as well finished as anything.

Geoffrey Boothroyd told me that if the British had made more movies about their people in India and their other colonies, the Webley would be as well known here as is the Colt SAA.

One good film to see Webleys in is, "Northwest Frontier", starring Kenneth More (not Moore) and Deborah Kerr. I think it's still on YouTube. I saw it in a theater in high school, and I have the DVD. Look carefully and you can see the captain's MK VI change in one scene to an earlier Mark with a four-inch barrel!

Actually, he couldn't have had a MK VI, because the film was set in 1905! But it could be standing in for a commercial Army Model, popular with officers buying their own revolvers, the norm until at least WWI. The Army Model looks like a MK VI, but has a front sight like a MK IV. It was for private purchase, not an issued model.

With changes in the world, movies like, Zulu, Northwest Frontier, and Safari probably can't be made today, and Lawrence of Arabia would also be difficult to make. Such films are among my favorites. See them when you can, and reflect on how the world has changed!

BTW, the officers in, Zulu had Webley MK VI guns. I guess the prop house couldn't find models suitable to a movie set in 1879...

On a contrary note, in TV's, The Lost World (1999-2002), the MKVI was rare. Usually subbed for with MK IV .38's. Lord Roxton's nickel guns were the only MK VI .455's I recall seeing on that Aussie-made series.

 

[Guevera]

It's not like the good old days when the Sten truck came by and it was Sten guns for everybody!

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Good article. I noticed that you mentioned US-provided Thompson SMG's being provided. While a little bit off the topic of the Sten guns, it would be easy to insert a line or two about the overall lack of arms for home defense units and the drive (assisted by the NRA) resulting in thousands of privately owned rifles, shotguns, and pistols provided by US citizens for use by the British anticipating a German invasion.

It might just be me, but I can't pass up an opportunity to publicize the unintended consequences of gun control laws!

 

[jimmyj]

What model Sten had the butt stock that was a round tube with a flat metal butt ? (like a long "T")

 

[PALADIN85020]

Good article. I noticed that you mentioned US-provided Thompson SMG's being provided. While a little bit off the topic of the Sten guns, it would be easy to insert a line or two about the overall lack of arms for home defense units and the drive (assisted by the NRA) resulting in thousands of privately owned rifles, shotguns, and pistols provided by US citizens for use by the British anticipating a German invasion.

It might just be me, but I can't pass up an opportunity to publicize the unintended consequences of gun control laws!

The last article in my book 101 Classic Firearms was titled "Help! Send Guns!". It describes the British gunless situation in WWII when they faced a probable German invasion, already plotted as "Operation Sea Lion." Their full-page plea for guns was published in the November 1940 American Rifleman. Americans did respond with thousands of personally-owned pistols, rifles, shotguns and binoculars. Very few were ever returned to their rightful owners, and most wound up melted for scrap or sunk in the ocean after the war. It's an object lesson - people denied firearms are designated as subjects, but people with the right to keep and bear arms are called citizens.

My final sentence in the book was If America ever had to appeal for arms to defend itself, exactly to whom would we turn???

John