The Civil War Model 1860 Spencer Carbine

[PALADIN85020]

looking at the picture what keeps the rounds in the mag tube when it's not in the rifle.....looks like they'd just "shoot out"

The spring-loaded inner tube does not contain the rounds outside the gun. The gun is loaded with cartridges, and the spring-tube is then pressed in over the cartridges, accepting them in the process. It is then locked in by turning the flange on its base into a recess in the buttplate.

The same concept is used in modern .22 rifles such as the Browning .22 auto and the Remington Nylon 66.

John

 

[BAM-BAM]

The spring-loaded inner tube does not contain the rounds outside the gun. The gun is loaded with cartridges, and the spring-tube is then pressed in over the cartridges, accepting them in the process. It is then locked in by turning down the flange on its base into a recess in the buttplate.

The same concept is used in modern .22 rifles such as the Browning .22 auto and the Remington Nylon 66.

John

So the "Blakeslee" tube was more of a "speedloader" than a magazine?

Any idea of the rate of fire ( rounds/minute) vs the muzzle loader at the time?

 

[PALADIN85020]

So the "Blakeslee" tube was more of a "speedloader" than a magazine?

Any idea of the rate of fire ( rounds/minute) vs the muzzle loader at the time?

Quite right. The spring-loaded tube in the arm's buttstock was really part of the feeding mechanism.

The Blakeslee loader was a simple tube (a number of them were in a leather container to be carried on the person). Each of the tubes contained pre-loaded cartridges. These were simply "dumped" into the empty magazine all at once to load it quickly.

I recall as a kid that carnival shooting galleries used similar tubes of .22 cartridges to quickly reload the autoloaders used (I think Brownings or Remingtons). Just a quick zip and the reload was accomplished. Those shooting galleries ate up a lot of my allowance money when I went to the state fair each year!

As to rate of fire, a lot depended on the dexterity of the shooter. A muzzle-loader could be fired as often as maybe 2-3 shots a minute if the user was skilled - but he had to stand up to do it. Probably the average rate was less. Also, many Civil War rifle-muskets were found on the battlefields with numerous charges in their barrels - common in the heat of war.

As mentioned in the article, Lincoln got off seven shots with a Spencer in about 30 seconds.

John

 

[Gene L]

Forgotten Weapons did a comparison between the Spencer and the Henry, both firing 7 rounds to make it fair. An interesting show.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Forgotten Weapons did a comparison between the Spencer and the Henry, both firing 7 rounds to make it fair. An interesting show.

I suspect the Henry bested the Spencer as far as rate of fire goes, as it self-cocks when the lever is actuated and the Spencer must be thumb-cocked before firing.

However, the Spencer is the more rugged arm, as it does not have an exposed and rather fragile tubular magazine under the barrel. If the Henry was dented there, it was out of action as a repeater, and would have to be single-loaded.

John

 

[Muley Gil]

Excellent article, however-

The receiver was relatively flat, making it ideal for scabbard carry on a horse.

These did not apply to the Cavalry. Each trooper wore a leather sling over his shoulder. This sling had a large swivel that sat at about the center of the soldier's chest. The swivel attached to the sling ring and the muzzle of the carbine was stuck into a leather socket that was affixed to the saddle rigging. Whenever the trooper got off of his horse, he took his carbine with him.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Excellent article, however-

The receiver was relatively flat, making it ideal for scabbard carry on a horse.

These did not apply to the Cavalry. Each trooper wore a leather sling over his shoulder. This sling had a large swivel that sat at about the center of the soldier's chest. The swivel attached to the sling ring and the muzzle of the carbine was stuck into a leather socket that was affixed to the saddle rigging. Whenever the trooper got off of his horse, he took his carbine with him.

True enough. I have one of those cavalry slings with the snap hook from the post-Civil War era. Even with the muzzle socket, flat was better. I made a change to the OP.

Thanks for the comment. You folks keep me accurate on these things, and I do appreciate it!

John

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Nice article. I am surprised that you made no mention of the Beecher's Island fight of 1868, where 50 US Army scouts armed with the Spencer held off repeated attacks by a much larger force of Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors.

John

 

[PALADIN85020]

Nice article. I am surprised that you made no mention of the Beecher's Island fight of 1868, where 50 US Army scouts armed with the Spencer held off repeated attacks by a much larger force of Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors.

John

The Spencers do have a history post-dating the Civil War, but to recount all of it would way exceed my space limitations. Therefore I'm pretty much sticking to its use in the CW.

John

 

[redwagon32]

The 1962 Gun Digest has an outstanding 10 page article on the Spencer including this favorite photo.....

 

[Bob L]

Great article and I learned a lot, Thank You! You mentioned that the folding rear sight was graduated to 800 yards but were they effective to that range?

 

[StrawHat]

Great article and I learned a lot, Thank You! You mentioned that the folding rear sight was graduated to 800 yards but were they effective to that range?

Aimed fire, no but volley fire at a massed enemy would certainly attract some attention.

Kevin

 

[Farmer17]

I really enjoyed the article and am a civil war buff but I had never heard much specifics on the Spencer or Henry in combat.

 

[Eltioloco]

However, I am positive that the arm used in the White House test firing was a carbine, as there are several references to it being a seven-shooter, including the quote from John Hay, one of Lincoln's personal secretaries. It does strike me that it would be odd for Spencer to not bring the same arm that he first showed Lincoln in the oval office.

Thanks for your comments.

John

John,
The carbine and the rifle both held seven rounds.
The only quote from Hays I could find was in Marcot’s book “This evening and yesterday evening an hour was spent by the President in shooting with Spencer’s new repeating rifle. A wonderful gun, loading with absolute simplicity and ease with seven balls and firing the whole readily and deliberately in less than half a minute.”
Thanks for your reply,
Ken

 

[Absalom]

If it were the case, it likely would have been mentioned, but does anybody have experiences with the Italian Spencer replicas, both rifle and carbine, that have been imported by Cimarron, Taylor, and possibly others?

They’re made by what used to be called Armi Sport, now Chiappa Arms, in Brescia, and have retail prices around 2000. I used an Armi Sport 1874 Sharps for many years for hunting and found it to be very well made. But I’ve never come across one of their Spencers “in person”.

 

[Muley Gil]

If it were the case, it likely would have been mentioned, but does anybody have experiences with the Italian Spencer replicas, both rifle and carbine, that have been imported by Cimarron, Taylor, and possibly others?

They’re made by what used to be called Armi Sport, now Chiappa Arms, in Brescia, and have retail prices around 2000. I used an Armi Sport 1874 Sharps for many years for hunting and found it to be very well made. But I’ve never come across one of their Spencers “in person”.

The Spencer is used in North-South Skirmish Association matches, where teams of Spencer shooters complete against each other in breaking targets. Fastest time wins.

Spencers are also used by cowboy action shooters. Here is a a link to the Spencer Shooting Society (SSS):

Spencer Shooting Society

 

[JayFramer]

The Henry might of had a higher rate of fire, but the Spencer was the better and more practical martial arm.

The magazine was secured inside the buttstock, free of dirt and protected from damage. The Henry’s was exposed with a prominent groove for the follower tab which allowed grit to enter into the magazine tube, and one wrong hit of the tube against a tree or other hard object could deform the magazine and hinder feeding.

Plus, the Henry was a bulkier and more awkward arm. The .44 rimfire round of the Henry was anemic past 100 yards yet the Spender’s .54 caliber round hit as hard as most single-shot breechloaders.

These are all reasons why the Spencer was overall superior for military usage during the ACW.

 

[PALADIN85020]

John,
The carbine and the rifle both held seven rounds.
The only quote from Hays I could find was in Marcot’s book “This evening and yesterday evening an hour was spent by the President in shooting with Spencer’s new repeating rifle. A wonderful gun, loading with absolute simplicity and ease with seven balls and firing the whole readily and deliberately in less than half a minute.”
Thanks for your reply,
Ken

Ken, I have found a painting on the internet that depicts Lincoln shooting a Spencer rifle rather than a carbine at the White House tryout. I have no idea where the artist got the information he used for his depiction. I also overlooked the fact that both the carbine and the rifle had the same magazine capacity. So I am not so sure which version he used. Were it me and given the choice, I would have taken the handier version of the gun - the carbine - to demonstrate for the President. So who knows unless we can find period commentary on that point. Accordingly, I've changed the text in the OP so as to use generic terms.

As to the Hay quote, The one I used varies only slightly from Marcot's version. It uses the more flowery syntax of that time in history, which to my mind makes it more authentic.

Thanks for your comments - very useful.

John

 

[Gene L]

I suspect the Henry bested the Spencer as far as rate of fire goes, as it self-cocks when the lever is actuated and the Spencer must be thumb-cocked before firing.

However, the Spencer is the more rugged arm, as it does not have an exposed and rather fragile tubular magazine under the barrel. If the Henry was dented there, it was out of action as a repeater, and would have to be single-loaded.

John

I don't think a Henry rifle would be ideal because of that magazine, but they did get some use. The Spenser looks a lot more robust. Henry beat the Spencer in rate of fire. The title of the show was Why Didn't the Spencer Get Chosen (as the official carbine.) I don't remember the details but I suspect there were lots of reasons. I only remember Ian saying clearing jams on the Spencer was very difficult.

 

[CajunBass]

Hickock 45 also has a video with the Spencer reproduction, as well as one comparing the Henry to the Spencer. I haven't seen the comparison one yet, but I assume they are reproductions both.

When I was a kid, I grew up in Hanover County, Virginia, site of at least two major battles of the Civil War (more if you count the Seven Days as more than one battle). This was during the 1960's Civil War Centennial, and when I didn't have a fishing rod or a shotgun in my hand, I had a metal detector. It was something to walk over areas where trenches and artillery pits were still visible. Bullets, buttons, belt buckles and cartridge box plates were normal finds, as were Spencer cartridges, both fired and "dropped" (unfired). Burnside cartridges too.

Note. I did not say I found it, just that it was found. I hunted mostly with my grandfather, and hunting behind him...well, he didn't miss much. He could find that stuff in a paved parking lot I'll bet. I spent many an afternoon on his porch, as he poked through what he'd found that day. He could tell you about every piece he found. What it was, where he found it, and who likely used it. If he didn't know, he'd go to one of his reference books and look it up.