feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Here is a 1892 carbine I used to own in 44-40. It was built in 1902. It came off a indian reservation in the dakotas.
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The classic Winchester lever gun of the old west
- Thread starter Wayne02
- Start date
Here's one that was packed around in a saddle scabbard in Wyoming and Montana so long that the bead on the front sight is nearly worn off.
May have been in the range wars in the late 1890's but the owner would never talk about it.
May have been in the range wars in the late 1890's but the owner would never talk about it.
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
thanx, Alpo!
there wasn't much to grab onto on the old 44-40 brass,either.
maybe the slight bottleneck aided extraction enough to do the job.
Wheelgunner840
Member
The slight bottleneck, and the thin case lips of the 44-40 and others expand to seal the chambers well enough to keep all the soot and fouling from black powder cartridges from blowing back into the receiver.
I shoot CAS matches with a 1873 44-40, using BP cartridge. I can go a 12 stage three day match without it jamming up if I had to. I clean it after 6 stages anyway. Just for the heck of it, I tried shooting .45 LC BP cartridges out of my 66 Winchester. What a mess. The straight walled case combined with the thicker brass at the case mouth (which does not expand and seal like a 44-40 case) was a recipe for disaster.
After shooting just one stage, the entire receiver was full of residue and fouling. By the second stage, I had to keep blowing out the lifter with balistol just to keep it from binding up completely! It took a great deal of time to get that rifle clean afterwards. I will never do that again!
Since all cartridges were loaded with black powder way back when, I would guess that the same would happen to their rifles if a straight walled case were used. Combine this with the small rim as shown above, and there is no question why the .45 LC was a pistol cartridge and not used in rifles.
WG840
I shoot CAS matches with a 1873 44-40, using BP cartridge. I can go a 12 stage three day match without it jamming up if I had to. I clean it after 6 stages anyway. Just for the heck of it, I tried shooting .45 LC BP cartridges out of my 66 Winchester. What a mess. The straight walled case combined with the thicker brass at the case mouth (which does not expand and seal like a 44-40 case) was a recipe for disaster.
After shooting just one stage, the entire receiver was full of residue and fouling. By the second stage, I had to keep blowing out the lifter with balistol just to keep it from binding up completely! It took a great deal of time to get that rifle clean afterwards. I will never do that again!
Since all cartridges were loaded with black powder way back when, I would guess that the same would happen to their rifles if a straight walled case were used. Combine this with the small rim as shown above, and there is no question why the .45 LC was a pistol cartridge and not used in rifles.
WG840
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Wyatt Burp
Member
Here's my favorite family heirloom. A take down Winchester Model 92 in .44 -40 from, I think, 1912. It shoots great and just "feels" perfect with that shotgun butt and pistol grip. My dad traded a Luger for it in the late 50's.
jlrhiner
US Veteran
I've got the carbine version of that 94 Classic. I love that gun.
Well...you cant really learn much about the old west from Hollywood. The way things really used to be and what it takes to sell movies are two very different things. Movie makers are the ones that gave us the fast draw too but it just didnt happen in the old west days. Winchester and Marlin both did offer slings around the 1890's/turn of the century but they were not very popular. You had to send the gun you just ordered and received back to the factory to have the "swivels" installed. They weren't really swivels either, they were little donut like rings. One was welded onto the forend band and the other screwed into the buttstock. Based on the number of them seen today they were extremely rare for sure. The sling itself had big hunky looking metal fish hook things that hooked into the ring. Had to be a serious noise maker. Another Hollywood fallacy I think is interesting but not too many people know about is the fact that the Colt 1873 Peacemaker, although featured in just about every western movie made, was not as owned/carried as the movie folks would have us believe. The Colt Peacemaker was very expensive to buy for the average cowboy and very hard to get because the Federal Govt. bought so many on contract. Unless you were rich {not too many cowboys were as I understand it} only the Army and U.S. Federal Marshall's or reservation police had them. Most cowboys didnt even own a pistol and those that did and many outlaws carried the comparable but much cheaper and more readily available Remington 1879 or 1890 models. Believe it or not even John Wayne used Great Western brand pistols in the movies he made instead of a Colt.
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Historical Question
Someone in my family believes they have the gun that (was it Emmett?) Dalton used. Question for Walnutred: Did your Grandfather's Uncle ever talk to you regarding the shooting? I'm curious about what happened.
The original .45 Colt had a copper case with a very small and weak rim, not suitable for repeating rifles.
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trapper704
Member
Back in the 50's my dad traded off his model 86 40-82 because you couldn't get shells for it anymore. Want to know how bad I wish I had that gun now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, my Grandfathers uncle died a few decades before I was born. I have seen a letter he wrote to my Great Grandfather telling of the even and I think the letter is still in my Grandmothers trunk. There were actually several letters and a picture of him and his family in front of a sod house. He had served with Company F, 6th Ill Cav. in the Civil War and we like to think that is where he acquired the Spencer. However it's just as likely he purchased it from Bannermans or Sears.
One advantage of a sling on a levergun is that unlike a bolt action it won't dig into your back no matter what side it is laying on.
This is one of two Model 1892's I have, both of which are in .32 W.C.F. caliber. This one was made in 1914. It is an excellent shooter also.
cowart
US Veteran
No, the character's name is listed as Jonas Cord Sr. on the IMDB character page. Several other actors played the same character in other movies based on "The Carpetbaggers".
Jonas Cord Sr. (Character)
Folks, thank you all for the history lessons, and with pictures, too!
I guess I'm spoiled, or something. I always put slings on every long-gun I've ever had. Probably had something to do with carrying an M14 around all day. TACC1
I guess I'm spoiled, or something. I always put slings on every long-gun I've ever had. Probably had something to do with carrying an M14 around all day. TACC1
Rolan_Kraps
Member
Do yourself a favor, go to Wal-mart and spend $5 and pickup a copy of Winchester 73 with Jimmy Stewart. It just might have you looking for one of these Uberti clones.
anglaispierre
Member
Although the 30-30 (or the 30 Winchester Centre Fire cartridge (WCF) as it was originally known) was not the original caliber of the Model 1894 Winchester, it has the distinction of being the very first sporting cartridge to be loaded with the new-fangled smokeless powder. That would have earned it its place in history, even if it had not been successful. However it became an enormous success. In fact it appeared in 1895, one year after the 1894 was introduced. For a rifle cartridge to still be in production in large numbers 116 years after it first appeared is quite amazing. And here in France it is still cheap to buy.
Winchester lever action rifles in a number of chamberings had been around since Oliver Winchester bought the New Haven Arms Company and changed its name to Winchester Repeating Arms company in 1866, the year he brought out the Model 1866. Prior to this the Henry lever action rifle had been in production since 1860, nearly all Henrys being brass framed giving them their name Henry Yellow Boy, although a very small number were iron framed. In fact some of the early Winchester 1866 rifles were also brass framed.
Several model changes took place over the following years, but it was John Moses Browning's design for the legendary Model 1894 that gave us the Winchester that most of us know. It seems that a subtle change of name to Model 94 (2 digits instead of 4) took place in 1964, when new production techniques were introduced, leading to what was regarded as an inferior rifle. Over 6 million 94s were made between 1894 and 2006, when the US Repeating Arms Company finally closed its doors. Production of the Model 70 bolt action rifle also ceased.
It was nice to see that FN Herstal, Belgium, a producer of Browning pistols and shotguns (and probably Winchester shotguns) for many years, has now re- started production of both rifles. They had a long standing relationship with John Moses Browning ( going back to 1897) and made a number of his guns under licence. He turned to them when Winchester refused to produce one of his designs, the Auto 5 shotgun, which went on to sell 5 million. In fact it was whilst he was visiting the FN factory in 1926 that Browning died. It seems appropriate that if production is to continue, it should be by a company trusted by the designer. The legend continues ...
I have three Model 94s, obviously a 30-30, plus a .44 Rem Mag and a .444 Marlin, plus a Model 9422 (not a real 94, but part of the family). No-one in my club will fire the 444. They all develop mysterious shoulder complaints when I produce it and ask who wants to have a go. I must admit it has a bit of a kick.
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Texas Star
US Veteran
One poster seems confused about the "saddle ring" on some carbines. A short leather loop could be tied onto it to sling the carbine from the saddle pommel.
I wouldn't have done it. The conventional saddle scabbard would protect the arm much better.
Winchester did develop prototype revolvers and I think that one was designed by Hugo Borchardt!
Colt stopped production of their Burgess rifle on seeing the Winchester prototypes. The arrangement was that Colt would make revolvers, and leave rifles to Winchester.
I disagree with the poster who said that civilians could seldom get Colt SAA revolvers. Colt had the ability to make more than needed for US Govt. orders, and some Indian police had Remingtons, anyway. Colt also exported these to other countries. At one time, both .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo was stocked by British supply depots in India, and Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC said that the .44-40 was the best stopper of any sidearm that he saw used along the Afghan frontier.(He later invented the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver.)
The SAA sold so well in Britain and the Empire that it was chambered in .450, .455, and .476 calibers. If you read the original, "King Solomon's Mines", you'll see that the author (a veteran of the Second Zulu War) armed his characters with .45 Colt SAA revolvers. The long arms were also very authentic. I have seen ads for Colts in South African publications of the dayl (Sir Henry Rider Haggard really said that the Colt's were for "the heavier pattern of cartridge", but at the time, only the .44-40 and .45 Colt were offered.)
Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, and others used these guns and Masterson ordered several directly from Colt. Earp also had at least one S&W .44.
That said, the poster is correct that ordinary cowboys often lacked the money for a new Colt. But they were only a small number of people living then!
Also, his post may be valid to a large degree IF one is thinking only of the very first years of production of the SAA.
T-Star
I wouldn't have done it. The conventional saddle scabbard would protect the arm much better.
Winchester did develop prototype revolvers and I think that one was designed by Hugo Borchardt!
Colt stopped production of their Burgess rifle on seeing the Winchester prototypes. The arrangement was that Colt would make revolvers, and leave rifles to Winchester.
I disagree with the poster who said that civilians could seldom get Colt SAA revolvers. Colt had the ability to make more than needed for US Govt. orders, and some Indian police had Remingtons, anyway. Colt also exported these to other countries. At one time, both .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo was stocked by British supply depots in India, and Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC said that the .44-40 was the best stopper of any sidearm that he saw used along the Afghan frontier.(He later invented the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver.)
The SAA sold so well in Britain and the Empire that it was chambered in .450, .455, and .476 calibers. If you read the original, "King Solomon's Mines", you'll see that the author (a veteran of the Second Zulu War) armed his characters with .45 Colt SAA revolvers. The long arms were also very authentic. I have seen ads for Colts in South African publications of the dayl (Sir Henry Rider Haggard really said that the Colt's were for "the heavier pattern of cartridge", but at the time, only the .44-40 and .45 Colt were offered.)
Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, and others used these guns and Masterson ordered several directly from Colt. Earp also had at least one S&W .44.
That said, the poster is correct that ordinary cowboys often lacked the money for a new Colt. But they were only a small number of people living then!
Also, his post may be valid to a large degree IF one is thinking only of the very first years of production of the SAA.
T-Star
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