The J Frame for defense

[Frank V]

There is a pretty good article in the June '12 issue of Handloader page 48, by by Terry Wieland. I'm a huge fan of the SA & the Ruger SA on the facing page caught my attention.

The article isn't about the J frame per se, but there is a paragraph near the middle of the article where Terry states that Sheriff Jim Wilson consideres the diminutive S&W J frame as possibly the best CC gun for the average person.

It's an interesting, well written, article & I thought some here might enjoy it if they hadn't seen it yet.
Thanks
Frank

 

[macman955]

"J" frame story

I occasionally carry a "J" frame as CCW for its concealment qualities, so I'll check out the story.
Thanks for the referral Frank.

 

[chief38]

Yes, I came to that conclusion back in 1980.

After trying to carry 1911's, K-Frames and other assorted SD guns, I came to the realization that I would rather have a gun (2" Chief's Special) that is small enough to be carried discretely each & every day rather than to constantly be totally uncomfortable or leave the weapon in a desk draw because it is just too cumbersome.

Since that day my 2" M60 has always been by my side. With the use of proper ammo (I use Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P's) and lots of practice I do NOT feel under gunned at all.

While the 38 Special might not be the optimal SD cartridge, I'd take it any day over a gun that is technically a better man stopper, but just too cumbersome to have when you need it.

There are plenty of guys that will tell you they carry full size 1911's, N Frames, etc. and dress around the gun. If that's your style then go for it, but I like to dress normally and not have my clothes shout "gun underneath". I also like to go around town in relative comfort and still be armed.

Just my .02 cents of course................

Chief38

 

[mc5aw]

I'm not sure if there's an unconditionally perfect gun out there for optimum defense and carry (opinions will vary as to a definition of "perfect") but from my experience, the J-frame covers more bases than most. Comfort, concealability, effectiveness of ammo, reliability, operational simplicity, the list of positive attributes goes on and on. Do I shoot "better" with a larger gun? Sometimes, but I shoot very well with a J, enough to feel confident in carrying one. Do I feel outgunned with five rounds of .38 and a speed strip or two? Realistically no, because if I'm in a situation that requires more than that, nothing short of a rifle is going to be adequate. I'm not in LE nor in combat, and I've never gotten into the Kool-Aid punch about biggest is best, and maximum round capacity is necessary in the urban jungle, etc. To each his own ... I'm also not hearty of stature enough to carry a full size 1911 around all day, so I'll make due with the time honored J-frame snub.

 

[JcMack]

I've got two revolvers left. One is a S&W 36 with a bobbed hammer, the other a Det Spec.. My prefered carry method is right jeans back pocket, in a pocket holster. The butt on either of these guns sticks up enough to grab it while sitting in my truck. Sometimes I supplement carrying either with a 21A .22 in my front pocket. I traded off a short butt Det. Spec. I wish I hadn't. A post '66 DS with agent grips is about the same size a J frame.

 

[dkizer22]

I have been carrying a J frame for over 30 years and I have not run out of bullets or had to reload yet.

 

[redlevel]

I have carried a j-frame of some sort since the early 70s. I have tried to carry larger guns, notably 1911s. It just doesn't work. There is just no combination of size and weight that works like j-frame, even the steel frame guns. I currently have a Model 60 in my right front pants pocket, in a Lobo holster. It isn't a pocket holster, but it works.

I have two potential non j-frame carry guns on hand now. I traded into a Kimber Pro-Carry earlier this year, with a pretty good holster. I carried it a time or two, and it seemed to conceal well under my shirt-tail. It has an alloy frame. Also, my brother gave me a four-inch round-butt Model 12-2 at Christmas. I believe I might be able to carry it in the correct belt holster. The K-frame is still a lot bulkier than a j-frame, though, regardless of weight.

For now, the j-frames just suit me. I have them in .22 and .38, and 2", 3", and 4". Like chief38, I carry BB 158 grain hp +p in them. It shoots to point of aim in both 3" and 4" guns. To me, for some strange reason, recoil with the BB+P load is more manageable in the j-frames than the same load in a Model 10. The recoil is certainly not as punishing as a full house .357 load in a 2.5" Model 19. I believe the BB loads have finally made the 2" j-frames a very viable defense gun. BTW, I sight in and practice at 10-15 feet (feet, not yards). I believe this is about the maximum range the average citizen should be shooting in a defense situation, unless he is being shot at by someone beyond that range.

Here are three of my j-frames, along with two Model 19s. The gun on the left is a Model 60 I carry every day. Next to it is a Model 37, currently loaded with CCI snake shot and located for easy access. Finally, my Model 34-1. All the holsters are by Lobo. The Model 34 is in the holster Ray made for my daughter's Christmas present.

 

[Texas Star]

redlevel-


Are all of those holsters by Lobo Leather? I especially like the way the leather comes up higher on the cylinder, ala the old Myres style.

EL Paso Saddlery cuts it lower there, my only complaint about them, other than slow delivery due to heavy orders.

However, the holster on the left doesn't have the leather reach the top of the frame. Did you ask for it to be be cut low there, to let you holster your M-34 with adj. sights ? (I realize, of course, that it's a M-60 in the holster in the photo.)

 

[doublesharp]

This 337ti is almost always in my right front pocket.

 

[PALADIN85020]

One of these is usually "...the constant companion of my walks," as Thomas Jefferson put it. Routinely loaded with .38 special +P 135 grain HP Gold Dots from Speer. Comfortable. Compact. Light. Sufficiently powerful. What's not to like?

John

 

[GatorFarmer]

Does a Colonel trump a Sheriff? Jeff Cooper was probably right years ago when he wrote that the little revolvers had their uses but were more of a niche item. Perhaps one that required an expert at times given a relatively steep learning curve. That is summarizing from the days before the royal "we" prefaced advise.

J frames do have significant drawbacks that have remained sice their birth. Short bbls mean less of a sight radius, less velocity and more muzzle blast. The easy to carry alloy models kick rather meanly for many. A small grip size doesn't help with that in some regards. The short ejector rods are not the best for kicking out empties either. And yes capacity is limited which could be a negative for some users.

It seems some new shooters get a J frame for size and ease of carry / use. Only later do they discover the above "con " side of the coin and end up having a difficult time with their new gun.

 

[Lt JL]

one of the problems i see frequently is gun salespeople neglect to inform potential customers that that cute, lightweight, easy to conceal J frame is gonna kick their butts with +p or hot loads. So the new owners get intimidated, and don't practice, or, worse, stop carrying all together. i tell first time J frame owners they should get a few boxes of target wadcutters just to get the feel of the weapon and learn good habits before they move up to defensive loads. I have carried an issued or personal J frame most days since the late 1970's, lately a 442 AirWeight, or my trusty nickel plated model 40-no-dash.

 

[BigDaddy7972]

Not to offend anyone but I think those that think a J frame is an adequate self defense weapon are fooling themselves. It's ok as a bug but as a primary,no way. You will go through those five rounds faster than you can imagine. And if you think reloading under stress after expending those quick five rounds is easy, think again. Btdt. Ymmv of course.

 

[redlevel]

Most things in life are a compromise. I would much rather have two police officers, one armed with a tactical carbine, the other with a shotgun, accompany me everywhere I go. It isn't practical. It also isn't practical, for various reasons, for me to carry a long gun, or even a major caliber pistol or revolver as my concealed piece.

On the other hand, a .22 mini revolver or a .25 semi-auto are not very useful as defense weapons, other than last-ditch, stick-it-in-his nostril type weapons. A j-frame, chambered for .38 special is a fair compromise. The biggest advantage to me is the knowledge that I will take it with me every time, unlike when I was trying to carry a 1911. It was just too bulky and too much of a hassle sometimes. As I stated in my first post, I consider 15 feet as just about the maximum distance I would use a j-frame. I believe if there is much more separation, most times one would be better served hunting cover or simply getting away.

As far as five shots, if I expend five rounds and the situation isn't resolved, I'm in a world of hurt anyhow, and more rounds are not going to help. I am not carrying to conduct an assault, rescue fair maidens, defend the public, apprehend desperate criminals, or other police type things. My scenarios are more in the line of me and my wife being confronted by one, or at the most two miscreants while pumping gas, leaving a movie theater, rolling my groceries out, or walking to my car after visiting the doctor, etc.

 

[sipowicz]

What's with the leather loop on the j-frame hammer?

 

[BigDaddy7972]

Most things in life are a compromise. I would much rather have two police officers, one armed with a tactical carbine, the other with a shotgun, accompany me everywhere I go. It isn't practical. It also isn't practical, for various reasons, for me to carry a long gun, or even a major caliber pistol or revolver as my concealed piece.

On the other hand, a .22 mini revolver or a .25 semi-auto are not very useful as defense weapons, other than last-ditch, stick-it-in-his nostril type weapons. A j-frame, chambered for .38 special is a fair compromise. The biggest advantage to me is the knowledge that I will take it with me every time, unlike when I was trying to carry a 1911. It was just too bulky and too much of a hassle sometimes. As I stated in my first post, I consider 15 feet as just about the maximum distance I would use a j-frame. I believe if there is much more separation, most times one would be better served hunting cover or simply getting away.

As far as five shots, if I expend five rounds and the situation isn't resolved, I'm in a world of hurt anyhow, and more rounds are not going to help. I am not carrying to conduct an assault, rescue fair maidens, defend the public, apprehend desperate criminals, or other police type things. My scenarios are more in the line of me and my wife being confronted by one, or at the most two miscreants while pumping gas, leaving a movie theater, rolling my groceries out, or walking to my car after visiting the doctor, etc.

Criminals and thugs today are better armed than ever before. It is not uncommon for them to carry multiple firearms most of which are high capacity. Trust me on this, you will go through those five shots in a heartbeat. And then what? While you are standing there fumbling with a reload be it a speed strip or a speedloader what do you think they are going to do, wait till you are finished reloading?
Carry what you want, it's your life and the lives of your family but why put yourself at a disadvantage right from the getgo when there are so many better choices than a J frame out there? It isn't very hard to arm yourself properly these days with whats available on the market. A 3953,3914,6906, Sig 239,Ruger LCP, the Kahr PM9 are all better choices for ccw than any J frame. Carrying a gun isn't supposed to be comfortable. It is to protect you and yours. If you honestly think you can safely do that with a j frame, then have at it. But I think you are making a serious mistake. And if you don't believe me, ask Mr. Evans from Detroit about his off duty experience with a j frame and get his opinion.

 

[tops]

As far as five shots, if I expend five rounds and the situation isn't resolved, I'm in a world of hurt anyhow, and more rounds are not going to help. I am not carrying to conduct an assault, rescue fair maidens, defend the public, apprehend desperate criminals, or other police type things. My scenarios are more in the line of me and my wife being confronted by one, or at the most two miscreants while pumping gas, leaving a movie theater, rolling my groceries out, or walking to my car after visiting the doctor, etc.

Me too! Another thing I like about my "J" frame in my front pocket is I can walk around with my gun in my hand which makes a very fast draw. Larry

 

[bushmaster1313]

When

And concealed carry comes to New Jersey,

I'll be ready:

 

[MaximumLawman]

J frames do have significant drawbacks that have remained sice their birth. Short bbls mean less of a sight radius, less velocity and more muzzle blast.

The short sight radius of a J-frame is not a significant drawback because chances are, you're not going to be using the sights anyway if you get into a J-frame self defense shooting.

But I think you are making a serious mistake. And if you don't believe me, ask Mr. Evans from Detroit about his off duty experience with a j frame and get his opinion.

Who is Mr. Evans from Detroit? Are you possibly referring to Evan Marshall? Next time you talk to him, ask him about the STRESS unit and the guy who exclusively carried the 5-shot J-Frame while working plain clothes decoy operations and how many successful shootings he had with it in the 70's.

Criminals and thugs today are better armed than ever before. It is not uncommon for them to carry multiple firearms most of which are high capacity.

Just out of curiosity, how many criminals and/or thugs have you stopped in the last year who were carrying more than one high capacity handgun?

 

[kraigwy]

Those who think the J Frame are too hard to shoot simply havent taken the time to practice with them a bit (or a lot).

As too fast????................I'm currently on a road trip to visit my daughter. She wants me to take her shooting to work with her a bit Which of course I did. I didn't do much shooting until she mentioned that the wife told her I could draw (pocket carry-no holset) in under a second.

She wanted to see if I could. I gave her the shot timer and told her to go for it. .45 seconds. Of course I started with my hand in my pocket but I walk around with my hands in my pocket anyway. That was at 7 yards and I hit the torso of the ICE target.

Thats **** that the gun is slow, and not accurate. All one needs to do is practice a bit. I don't use +Ps, don't figure I need them. I used standard 38s Winchester 158 LSWC. It works on rattlers, deer, coyotes and I even had to put down a horse. Never felt under gunned.

As too not having enough bullets............I can't remember if it was Lenon or Stalin who said one man with a gun can control 100 without a gun.............the same theory works for the 5 shot J frame.

15 rounds---45 feet 158 grn LSWC, S&W 642

 

[JcMack]

Here's what's left of my carry revolvers. I really like the "O" ring retention on the left hand holster. I'm carrying a G26 more lately because of wandering pit bulls around here.

 

[David LaPell]

I have come to really enjoy carrying those little j-frames about here and there. I have had three now, two Model 36's, one nickel one blued and now my little 649. With the right loads the gun is ideal. The J-frame slips right into a pocket any day of the year hot or cold.

 

[BigDaddy7972]

The short sight radius of a J-frame is not a significant drawback because chances are, you're not going to be using the sights anyway if you get into a J-frame self defense shooting.



Who is Mr. Evans from Detroit? Are you possibly referring to Evan Marshall? Next time you talk to him, ask him about the STRESS unit and the guy who exclusively carried the 5-shot J-Frame while working plain clothes decoy operations and how many successful shootings he had with it in the 70's.


Just out of curiosity, how many criminals and/or thugs have you stopped in the last year who were carrying more than one high capacity handgun?

Yes, my bad, I was referring to Evan Marshall. I too carried a couple of revolvers back in the day. I know a couple of guys who did that. The key phrase however is "back in the day". Things change and usually not for the better. This isn't the 1970's. As far as to how many thugs I have stopped in the last year that were carrying more than one high capcity handgun, the answer is twice. It's not uncommon.

 

[guy22]

Yes, my bad, I was referring to Evan Marshall. I too carried a couple of revolvers back in the day. I know a couple of guys who did that. The key phrase however is "back in the day". Things change and usually not for the better. This isn't the 1970's. As far as to how many thugs I have stopped in the last year that were carrying more than one high capcity handgun, the answer is twice. It's not uncommon.

Just out of curiosity!!! How do these thugs carry??? Do they wear shoot me first vests, hoodies, or just have it in a car???

Guy22

 

[BigDaddy7972]

One guy had it in a car, the other guy was security for a dope house. The guy in the car had a stolen G19 and his buddy had and old beat up 3914. The security for the dope house had a Beretta 96 hidden in a bush he was standing next to as well as a 380. We watched him go to that bush several times to check to make sure his guns were still there,lol.

 

[bushmaster1313]

We watched him go to that bush several times to check to make sure his guns were still there,lol.

Not so dumb
Lots of guns have walked in the past few years

 

[redlevel]

What's with the leather loop on the j-frame hammer?

It is for retention. It is a fairly rigid piece of rawhide. it fits well enough over the hammer to keep the gun in the holster, but it is very easy to slip the thong off with my thumb.

redlevel-


Are all of those holsters by Lobo Leather? I especially like the way the leather comes up higher on the cylinder, ala the old Myres style.

EL Paso Saddlery cuts it lower there, my only complaint about them, other than slow delivery due to heavy orders.

However, the holster on the left doesn't have the leather reach the top of the frame. Did you ask for it to be be cut low there, to let you holster your M-34 with adj. sights ? (I realize, of course, that it's a M-60 in the holster in the photo.)

All the holsters are by Lobo. The two 2" j-frame holsters are identical except for the finish and the lining on my daughter's holster. Ray was good enough to make these holsters based on some photographs I sent him of an old K-frame holster.

Things change and usually not for the better.

Yes, I agree 100%. The j-frame was the best choice for civilian concealed carry 40 years ago, and none of the changes since then have negated that.

 

[Frank237]

Way back in the mid 70's I'd say that 90% of all east coast coppers carried either a J frame 2" or a PPK/S Walther. At least so it seemed.

I had a 2" M-60 with a set of Fuzzy Farrant custom grips in some sort of Safariland OWB holster. And I felt WELL gunned.

Then we had a situation one time maybe an hour after shift change, and a few of us from the previous shift were nearby (at a Bar!) and responded. There had already been some shots fired, and one of our guys had been injured in a scuffle with the perp and had lost his 4" M-19.

Standing there trying to cover one flank, with my 2" M-60; MAN but did I ever feel underpowered and ineffective! I luckily snagged a shotgun from one of the State Troopers who responded. Felt a LOT better then.

I still carry a M-60 occasionally but my Commander sized Ed Brown 1911 in .45 acp gets carried far more. With oneof my ex duty guns SIG 229's in .357 SIG as my car gun when I travel in my man bag.



FN in MT

 

[GatorFarmer]

The short sight radius of a J-frame is not a significant drawback because chances are, you're not going to be using the sights anyway if you get into a J-frame self defense shootin?

Confidence with a gun is bred via success at drills and practice. Difficulty with sights may make that difficult.

Some people do use the sights even at the distance of a living room. I had a heavy bbl Model 64 - and not a J frame - the first time I had to aim a weapon at someone. I distinctly remembered lining up the front post center of mass. The rear sights served as a point of reference.

 

[Frank V]

Wow, there is a lot of response to this thread.
I was pointing out an article that had a paragraph by a respected Lawman about the J frame.

Since I started it, I think I'll give my thoughts too.
I started in LE back in the early 70s, most of us carried revolvers then. I carried a S&W mod 19 with shudder handloads, remember this was '73!
I also carried other guns on duty as allowed.

I was blessed in that time to never have to shoot another Human & I've thanked God for that often. A few times it was very close, but I never had to shoot anyone. Some of my friends weren't so blessed.
During most of that time a S&W J frame was my constant companion. It was a mod 60 & spent so much time in my pocket that it looked like a nickle gun. I shot it enough to really trust it.

I also shot NRA Pistol Bullseye for just over 20 years. Some of that time I shot the J frame just to do it. They are surprisingly accurate, just more difficult to wring that accuracy out of than some other guns. They will regularly keep 3 out of 5 shots on a std B50 target at 100 yards if you are shooting well that day.

Do I carry one as primary? Not often, but in the summer it may be the largest gun I can carry & REALLY conceal it. I am confident with it & feel it'll bring me home at night if neccessary.

Chenk out the Armed Citizen in the American Rifleman. I think you will find a large part of the time the simple dispay of a firearm by a citizen will settle the confrontation. I've seen this a number of times on duty too. Most criminals, once they realise they are in danger, want to be somewhere else. Stealth is another reason I really like the J frames. No one will know you have it till you pull it, this in itself is a huge advantage.

I feel, though, that awareness of your surroundings, planning an escape route, identifying cover & concealment, will go a loooooong ways towards bringing you & your family home at night.
I'm no longer required to go into places of known danger & won't unless there is overwelming reason to! Given the opportunity if I have to I'll run, there are a number of ways to avoid danger. I will seek those.
Still the J frame is very comforting & it's not a false comfort. I really like the J frame. If you want a real treat, hang a targer at 25 + yards & shoot at it. I think you will be surprised at how well they shoot. I favor a good wadcutter target load for practice & they will often hit right to the sights. For serious, I load with Buffalo Bore 158gr lead SWC HP non +P, BB claims 850fps & I've chronographed them at an actual 867fps frome a 2" gun. This is the duplicate of the OLD FBI load.
Thanks, good shooting.
Frank