The Model 19 "Controversy"

ImDrRich

ImDrRich

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I've been a shooter since about 1970. In 1972 I bought a new Model 19 with a 2 1/2 bbl and, although I sold it about 10 years later, in my head it's always been the gun I'd go to again - if I needed another .38spl revolver.

I realize that 1972 is a long time ago (for all of us) but let me tell you about my experiences with the 19. I shot the hell out of it, usually shooting .38spl with only a few magnums here and there. In those days I was interested in taking a course with Jeff Cooper and corresponded regularly with one of his "deputies." When he asked what revolver I had I replied the Model 19.

He specifically told me that the Model 19 was really not the .357 magnum revolver everyone thought it was. ".357 magnum in the Model 19 is to be shot seldom or not at all to avoid cracking the frame and/or forcing cone." I asked him if that was the general opinion there (i.e., Jeff Cooper's opinion) and he said "absolutely." Clearly, they weren't fan's of the K-frame shooting .357 magnum.

Thereafter, I followed his direction. Despite the fact that I wanted to master the .357 magnum, I shot 99% .38spl. Let me tell you, the Model 19s in the those days were just beautiful firearms; the size, the weight - and that bluing!

So it was like having an 8 cylinder car on a long road where the speed limit is 20mph; you simply couldn't use it for its intended purpose. I'm quite sure (no data of course) that the new Model 19 can probably shoot thousands of rounds of .357 magnum without difficulty, but those old beautiful ones? It was so long ago I can't even remember if that was one of the reasons I sold mine. Moreover, design- and finish-wise, the new one is a completely different animal. YMMV, of course.

Just some history from an older shooter.

Regards to all -

Rich
 
I never met Cooper but he seemed like a curmudgeon from the tales I have heard.
But if he saw a K frame or two cracking after blasting thousands of 357 in his training school Im sure he would report that they were all garbage.
Probably didnt help that the 586 was released right around the corner.
 
First revolver I ever bought was a S&W 19 w/ four inch barrel. Nickel plated. Gorgeous revolver. God only knows how many rounds it fired. Lot's of .38 Special and .357 Mag. Never had a problem out of it. After I graduated seminary, I gave that revolver to my father. It was the best present I could think of to give him. Just beautiful. One night he used it to stop a couple of fellows from making off with the Mercury outboard motor off his fishing boat. Happily he fired one round and they ran like rabbits. The motor was left in the back yard. Good for them my father wasn't really interested in hitting them. Later while working in the yard I found the spent bullet. Cool. Sincerely. bruce.
 
I have owned easily 6 K frame Magnums over the years. Probably more. I was told by the factory to limit my .357 to occasional use and 158 grain only. I know there are some who have shot thousands of .357 in them, but there is no doubt Magnum ammo in a K frame was an issue. Why else would they have come up with an L frame? The whole point of the K frame was .357 without the N frame bulk. Why would they go heavier and make an L frame if they didn’t need to?
 
In my lifetime in firearms I have heard a lot of stories about certain guns. Most of the stories are circulated by guys who never owned that particular gun or have any experience with it.The guys who have owned and shot them usually report they are fine guns. It continues today.Dont listen to heresay
 
ImDrRichard said:
I've been a shooter since about 1970. In 1972 I bought a new Model 19 with a 2 1/2 bbl and, although I sold it about 10 years later, in my head it's always been the gun I'd go to again - if I needed another .38spl revolver.

I realize that 1972 is a long time ago (for all of us) but let me tell you about my experiences with the 19. I shot the hell out of it, usually shooting .38spl with only a few magnums here and there. In those days I was interested in taking a course with Jeff Cooper and corresponded regularly with one of his "deputies." When he asked what revolver I had I replied the Model 19.

He specifically told me that the Model 19 was really not the .357 magnum revolver everyone thought it was. ".357 magnum in the Model 19 is to be shot seldom or not at all to avoid cracking the frame and/or forcing cone." I asked him if that was the general opinion there (i.e., Jeff Cooper's opinion) and he said "absolutely." Clearly, they weren't fan's of the K-frame shooting .357 magnum.

Thereafter, I followed his direction. Despite the fact that I wanted to master the .357 magnum, I shot 99% .38spl. Let me tell you, the Model 19s in the those days were just beautiful firearms; the size, the weight - and that bluing!


Just some history from an older shooter.

Regards to all -

Rich
Click to expand...

1972? Seems like only yesterday. That's the year I graduated from high school. 7 years later, I bought a used 6" M19-2; had to be from at least 1963 because that was when the 6" was introduced, but I didn't know any of that, or care. I also never heard anything about forcing cones cracking from any other shooters. Internet didn't exist, and I didn't read the gun magazines much. I was shooting on my prison unit's pistol team at PPC matches, and the go-to gun was the M19. Lots of guys were building them with heavier barrels and doing action jobs, and punching dime-size holes in a B27's X-ring from 25 yards with them. I was in over my head, couldn't afford the custom work, so after a year I traded it for a 4" M66-1 and moved to the service revolver class, where it was stock guns.

Now, at matches, everybody was practicing with and using wadcutters at the matches, so no real danger of over pressure rounds or extreme MV's, but the top shooters probably put 3-5K through their guns a year to be competitive, and I know I was doing around 1000. But I also shot a lot of 158 grain JHP magnum loads, because that's what we were issued for duty. For my own use, I liked the 125 JHP, so I shot a lot of those, too. Can't say it was in the thousands, but it was in the hundreds. Most of the other guys on the team did the same thing, and I don't remember anyone ever saying they'd blown their gun up or cracked the forcing cone, and I hadn't either. That was all in a 5 year period. I kept that M66-1 until 2005, and it quit getting wadcutters and got nothing but 125's mostly, all factory loaded ammo, never had any issues.

After selling the M66 (and boy did I regret it a year or so later). I finally found another M19 in 2014, a 4" dash-3. I still had not heard anything about forcing cone cracks, because I hadn't yet become an enthusiast about S&W's, learning about their history or "weaknesses", but that one started the ball rolling in that respect. I had already put a healthy dose of 125's through it (this time my own reloads) when I started reading on the forums about the forcing cones and shooting magnums in a K frame. I figured, if S&W stamped magnum on the barrel, it was good to go using them in the gun, but a kernel of doubt started forming. Now, every time I let loose with a cylinder full of 125's at the range, I'd inspect the forcing cone carefully when reloading, or cleaning the gun later. I started getting paranoid about 125's, so I finally quit using them and only loaded 158's, but was still using full power loads.

Now, I have a N frame .357 to use for the heavy stuff, and have relegated the M19 to downloaded 158's, and my "new" M66-1 snub also gets a reduced power magnum load. I guess it's better safe than sorry nowadays, since repair work on these classic guns is so expensive and parts difficult to find, but throughout my K-frame history and experience, I've still yet to have or see an issue with them. I'd love to know how many M19's/M65's/M66's were made up to around 1990, and of those, how many had a cracked forcing cone from any cause. I think it might be a smaller percentage than everyone thinks.
 
The S&W K-frame 357 Magnum's came about through a collaboration between S&W and famed BPS agent, Bill Jordan. At that time, practice by LEO's was with 38 Special ammo, 357 Magnum ammo was used sparingly and the standard load was a 158 grain bullet. The K-frame 357 held up in a reasonable fashion. As departments transitioned to practicing and qualifying with duty ammo and the introduction of the lightweight 110 and 125 grain loads powered by colloidal ball powders, the K-frame 357 did show its weakness, primarily the portion of the forcing cone that was milled away for crane clearance.

The N-frame and the L-frame have full diameter forcing cones and are less prone to cracking. The current production K-frame 357's have been redesigned so as to have full diameter forcing cones. I think the current production K-frame 357's will hold up much better with a diet of 357 Magnum ammo.

I do have a Model 19-3 and I stopped shooting 110 and 125 grain full power magnum ammo when I noticed erosion at the edge of its forcing cone.
 
This link was shared with me in a thread where I asked where to start with buying a S&W revolver and the model 19 got a lot of recommendations. Its by an old police armorer on the differences between the old 19 and the new 19 with insights on where they used to break. I found it well worth my time.
The new S&W Model 19 Classic ~ A S&W Armorer's Review - YouTube
 
The model 19 was designed in the early 1950s as a police revolver that was easier/lighter to carry than the N-frame. "carried a lot; shot a little"

Most dept's still carried .38 special ammo .... almost all qualified with .38 special .... some carried .357 on duty (more State Police or Highway Patrols and Sheriffs west of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon line . In those days you could choose any .357 round and it was a 158gr bullet.

The 70s brought on a revolution in ammo design moving toward lighter faster 125 and 110 grain ammo Which was hard on the K-frame magnums with its flat bottom forcing cone. Causing some to crack.

Is it an urban legend? NO Did it/will it happen to every 19/66 No.

Ranks up there with the cracked Beretta slides in the 80s by SEALS using
thousands of rounds of Submachine gun ammo

I regularly carry a 3" 66...... in urban environments I load 125gr +P .38 hollow points ...... out it Penn's Woods 158 gr soft points.

Remember No handgun round is a magic laser .....double tap
 
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The Revolver Guy has an recent article with information from one of the engineers behind the L-frame, and it reveals something I had never heard before. During the 19-3 (and no-dash 66), period, the gas ring was moved from the cylinder to the yoke for a while. The change required more material to be machined off of the famous barrel flat that is considered to be the weakest point on those guns. It was also this period that saw an increase in the use of magnums for Law Enforcement training AND a shift towards use of lighter bullets like the 125 grain JHP in .357.

I think most of us knew about the last two factors, but the change in the barrel flat was new to me. The poor Combat Magnum got a triple whammy!

The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story - RevolverGuy.Com
 
I can’t recall exactly when I bought my original Model 19. It’s a -3 version, purchased new, and I still have it. It was probably acquired in the mid-70s. Back then, it seems everyone understood what the gun was all about. I don’t think anyone I knew looked at it as a full-time .357. Everyone shot mostly .38s and only occasionally used .357s, just as the gun was designed to do. It’s appeal was in its compact design and lightweight. (And back then almost all factory .357s were 158-grain, Super Vels being the notable exception.) When, thirty years later, I started reading here about all the troubles with the Model 19 and how people were using them, my thoughts were, “No wonder!” :rolleyes: :D

I can’t say I haven’t seen a cracked Model 19. I think I’ve seen two or three. By far the majority of the 19s I have been around did exactly what they were designed to do. I’d like to try one of the new ones, but my eyes, tuned into guns from the 60s and 70s, haven’t adapted to the looks of the new production guns, yet. They may be tough, but to me they are not exactly beauty queens. :)
 
The K frame 357's were the main stay of LE when I came on the job and being the Range Master, I seen a lot of them used and abused but never seen one cracked at the forcing cone or shot loose. I own several 19s today including my first gun, a 6 inch 19 and they all shoot and function fine.
The average shooter will never shoot their guns enough to wear them out.
 
Skippyjon Jones said:
See this post from member CLASSIC12 (thanks!):

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...gnums-shooting-357-magnums.html#post140673467

New then 66-3 that cracked the forcing cone in 2K rounds. At least my current production 686 did not crack yet (and it looks can shoot many more Ks before doing any of that).
Click to expand...


I was going to post but I see that you quoted my post on this topic already, thanks. It winds me up a little when people say it’s hearsay or urban legend, since it happened to me not once but twice.

Anyway I don’t hold a grudge since I recently bought a nice 6” mod 19-3 from 1970 and a 1972 4” mod 66

And I still have that 6” mod 66-3 from 1988

But to me they’re .38 special guns now

196e9dfb51805394bc20b657db7e2e7a.jpg


6a247e1f060f66e3344e9ecadd4ea5c3.jpg


fda294f99fdaad9c587bcbb0d5b0dca8.jpg
 
Have shot Thousands of 357s in my Blue 19 that I bought in Guam.
That includes a lot of Handloads.
I was mostly following the Gospel of Elmer, heavy Bullets.
When I cast bullets, I had Elmer’s 150, 160 and 174 Grain Molds.
Loaded so much 2400 that I saw it laying on the bench.
Later, took that 19 to SEA.
Went lightweight! Carried 130 Grain Issued Ammo.
That Gun is Retired. It’s done it’s Duty!
I have plenty of other guns to shoot.
 

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