The Online Gun Purchase Loophole??

[gdnagle]

Close Online Gun Purchase Loophole easy shut down the internet. OH NO !! we would all have to find something else to do preferably outside.

Disclaimer this was a joke. People are like sheep they follow the one with the loudest mouth right or wrong.

 

[Travis15R]

I bought my AR-15 off Gunbroker and my .40 M&P off GunsAmerica. Both were sent to an FFL for a back ground check.

But not all online guns sales are from gun sites either. We have a local online site for Maine, NH, VT called uncle Henerys. It started off as a weekly print for items for sale ranging from cars to electronics, bikes, realestate, guns exc exc.. pretty much everything but over the years it has expanded to online. People leave their contact info either e-mail or phone number and that's how sales are conducted. Very easy to buy a gun this way and if the seller did not want to meet and have a back ground check done before hand then one would not need to be done. Also anyone can get on FB and put up their gun(s) for sale if they choose to. So overall the online loop hole does not directly refer to online gun sites where it is required that guns are sent to an FFL dealer before being released to the buyer.

 

[bobermo]

But not all online guns sales are from gun sites either. We have a local online site for Maine, NH, VT called uncle Henerys. It started off as a weekly print for items for sale ranging from cars to electronics, bikes, realestate, guns exc exc.. pretty much everything but over the years it has expanded to online. People leave their contact info either e-mail or phone number and that's how sales are conducted. Very easy to buy a gun this way and if the seller did not want to meet and have a back ground check done before hand then one would not need to be done. Also anyone can get on FB and put up their gun(s) for sale if they choose to. So overall the online loop hole does not directly refer to online gun sites where it is required that guns are sent to an FFL dealer before being released to the buyer.

Intrastate unlicensed private sale transfers are regulated by state or local laws, not Federal Laws. Some states do not require background checks for non-FFL unlicensed private sale transfers who live in the same state, but some states do. In any case, an unlicensed private seller can NOT legally ship a firearm to a different state without going through a FFL.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 regulates interstate commerce of firearms. According to Wikipedia...

"Private sales between residents of two different states are also prohibited without going through a licensed dealer, except for the case of a buyer holding a Curio & Relic license purchasing a firearm that qualifies as a curio or relic.

Private sales between unlicensed individuals who are residents of the same state are allowed under federal law so long as such transfers do not violate the other existing federal and state laws. While current law mandates that a background check be performed if the seller has a federal firearms license, private parties living in the same state are not required to perform such checks under federal law. State laws however can prohibit such sales."

The Manchin-Toomey bill attempted to create a Federal Law that would regulate intrastate commerce by requiring a background check between private sellers within the same state, which is now only regulated by state or local laws.

 

[Travis15R]

Intrastate unlicensed private sale transfers are regulated by state or local laws, not Federal Laws. Some states do not require background checks for non-FFL unlicensed private sale transfers who live in the same state, but some states do. In any case, an unlicensed private seller can NOT legally ship a firearm to a different state without going through a FFL.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 regulates interstate commerce of firearms. According to Wikipedia...

"Private sales between residents of two different states are also prohibited without going through a licensed dealer, except for the case of a buyer holding a Curio & Relic license purchasing a firearm that qualifies as a curio or relic.

Private sales between unlicensed individuals who are residents of the same state are allowed under federal law so long as such transfers do not violate the other existing federal and state laws. While current law mandates that a background check be performed if the seller has a federal firearms license, private parties living in the same state are not required to perform such checks under federal law. State laws however can prohibit such sales."

The Manchin-Toomey bill attempted to create a Federal Law that would regulate intrastate commerce by requiring a background check between private sellers within the same state, which is now only regulated by state or local laws.

I do realize that state to state transfer is different but my main point was that there are many ways to sell a gun online that does not require the gun being sent to an FFL dealer for the check to be done. Granted not every state may have a publication like the Uncle Henerys catalog that I mentioned but there are lots of other options for online sales of firearms that are not on sites like gunbroker or gunsAmerica where FFL checks are required.

This is mainly what this bill is aimed to stop and with much legislation it is usually just a foot in the door and the tip of the ice berg.

 

[geewho]

Please forgive my ignorance, but after reading this thread and the one "Federal Gun Registration" I am confused about whether there is any advantage to owning registered over non-registered firearms. Please do not assume anything from my question, and I apologize in advance if this is considered hijacking the thread. Thank you.

 

[S&W45Colt]

The Gun Show loop hole, Elvis and Sasquatch, often referred to, never actually proven.

 

[S&W45Colt]

Please forgive my ignorance, but after reading this thread and the one "Federal Gun Registration" I am confused about whether there is any advantage to owning registered over non-registered firearms. Please do not assume anything from my question, and I apologize in advance if this is considered hijacking the thread. Thank you.

This one is more complicated than it seems, people are discussing Federal gun laws for the most part. but I'll give you may take, for what it's worth. You did not state which State you live in. Technically speaking, Federal Law does not require "registration," of anything other than NFA guns(SBR's, machine guns etc). It does require background checks before purchase.

1. Some states require registration, I'm no lawyer, but if I lived in MA, CA, IL NY or any other anti-gun State, I'd make sure I understood the registration requirements of that State very well and if registration is required.

2. From a Federal law standpoint, as long as the guns were never legally required to be registered, grandfathered, bought in state etc, I'd sit on them, smile and be quiet. No one will be looking for your guns if we ever have a gun grab attempt in this country. You have an Ace in the hole.

There are other on here who are better versed and are FFL's. You can always PM them and ask specific questions, Bluegrass Arms never seems to mind gun law questions.

 

[johngalt]

Please forgive my ignorance, but after reading this thread and the one "Federal Gun Registration" I am confused about whether there is any advantage to owning registered over non-registered firearms. Please do not assume anything from my question, and I apologize in advance if this is considered hijacking the thread. Thank you.

What's this gun registration of which you speak? There isn't any at the federal level, except for NFA weapons. A handful of states register firearms, but they are the minority.

There is some speculation that the ATF has illegally created a registry from the 4473 forms that must be filled out when purchasing from a licensed dealer.

The "Federal Gun Registration" was just yet another "what if" thread.

Since registration is the first step toward confiscation, the obvious advantage to owning firearms that don't have paperwork that can be traced back to you is that when the gun banners start confiscating, they won't know what you have. Of course, you then run the risk of getting caught with it at the range, hunting, etc.

 

[Pasifikawv]

Online or offline; gun show or parking garage; retail or relative; from the safe or from the trunk; to a neighbor or a nobody; dealer or private: IT IS ALREADY ILLEGAL UNDER EXISTING LAW TO KNOWINGLY SELL, TRADE, LEND, GIVE, OR OTHERWISE TRANSFER A FIREARM TO ANY PROHIBITED PERSON.

There is no "online loophole" or "gun show loophole" or any other "loophole."

There is, however, a lack of enforcement of illegal transactions by thugs and criminals.

There is also over-enforcement of paperwork violation such as "check-box felonies" - i.e. being arrested on felony charges for form-filling errors or being arrested for a "straw purchase" for gifting a firearm to your law-abiding uncle even when transferred to him thru a FFL after a bg check (true story - visit NRA-ILA for links).

 

[Pasifikawv]

What's this gun registration of which you speak? There isn't any at the federal level, except for NFA weapons. A handful of states register firearms, but they are the minority.

There is some speculation that the ATF has illegally created a registry from the 4473 forms that must be filled out when purchasing from a licensed dealer.

The "Federal Gun Registration" was just yet another "what if" thread.

Since registration is the first step toward confiscation, the obvious advantage to owning firearms that don't have paperwork that can be traced back to you is that when the gun banners start confiscating, they won't know what you have. Of course, you then run the risk of getting caught with it at the range, hunting, etc.

Be careful here: When the ATF sent demand letters to all dealers in the southwest states that they must register with the feds the information (persons and arms) of all purchasers who acquire more than one long gun, the FFL Dealers with the NRA, NSSF etal. sued the gov't.

NSSF/FFLs/etal contended that the ATF demands to register all legal buyers of more than one long-gun was a violation of the law that prohibits the feds from keeping a "national registry."

The federal courts ruled that since the federal registration requirements detailed in the demand letters was "limited" to SW states - not the entire nation, the ATF demand for registering the transaction with the feds was not in violation of the law that prohibits a "national registry." In theory, based on federal court rulings, there can be a "federal registry" so long as the ATF maintains it by separate states and not as a "national registry."

Of course the intent of the law was to prohibit a "federal" registry, but the court interpreted the law as prohibiting only a nation-wide registry. The court has no problem with the feds maintaining registration lists "limited" to each state.

There is a now a defacto federal registry that encompasses the entire south west on a state-by-state basis, but since the list is by state and not all the states are lumped together on the same list, the courts found the back-door registration scheme lawful.

ATF puts the info for each state in a single database/filing cabinet: unlawful "national" list; ATF separates the registration lists by state: A-Okay.

NRA-ILA | Federal Court Upholds ObamaHolder Gun Registration Scheme