The question has been asked . . .

[rednichols]

. . . about what we call 'cocked and locked' carry of the 1911 and which Jeff Cooper labelled Condition One. In another post (A New Paradigm) it came up that not everyone is familiar with the history of this pistol has been carried, historically, and the timeline.

Rather than blur that thread, I've started a new one (p.s., everyone who has posted over there has been very nice ).

The history of holsters (I've labelled it 'holstory') is as old as revolving pistols. That's because until then, with only a single shot they were left with the horse; once fired they became clubs. The cartridge pistol increased the need that holsters filled -- and very shortly after made the auto pistol possible.

The holstory of auto pistol holster therefore evolved differently: they began to find acceptance with WW1 and we got our 1911 as a result. To carry it: what is known as the M1916 holster. The 1911 was approved to be carried in the holster in Condition Three, not least because even today a pistol is not issued to everyone, and it is a PDW (personal defence weapon) not a primary assault piece.

So: 1908 brought us the Luger, 1911 brought us the Government Model, 1938 brought us the P38, 1950-ish brought us the M39. This matters because in 1970, when I joined the Bianchi Holster company, these were the only locked blowback pistols to make holsters for (admitting that on very rare occasions we would make one for the old Mausers). No SIGS, no Glocks, not even M59s.

The best known, and one of the few, to authorise the carry of the 1911 was the Texas Rangers, because of the ability of the Super .38 to penetrate car bodies. The 38/44 loading for revolvers was introduced for the same reason, quickly supplanted by the 357 Magnum.

Really, then, holster makers until 1970 derived the bulk of their sales from revolver holsters. And the 1911 was not carried in Condition One. Here's a bit of a pictorial timeline:

1943 Heiser

1964 Bianchi

1969 Seventrees

1979 Galco

All are Condition Three, as are every other auto holster (aren't many) in these catalogues.

Of special note, as an affirmation of the paradigm that autos were carried in Condition Three, is the Bianchi (second image): draw in Condition Three and rack the slide to load a round.

The first Condition One image that I have, appears in a Bianchi catalogue of 1971; it is unfortunately a .tiff format and won't upload to the forum, and the computer I use to convert .tiff to .jpeg is down.

I've a copy of an old Cooper article from the '60s, in which he's arguing towards police departments taking Condition One seriously. it just wasn't done then. Easy to find an exception or two. But that's all.

Condition One in holsters was directly derived from what was once called "combat shooting", which the PC lot renamed "action shooting". And that began with Cooper and Big Bear, which was the transition from the fast-draw SAA craze of the 1950s using blanks, to live ammo with 1911s. Same holster makers, too: Anderson and Alfonso. And it was the Bianchi Cup of 1979 that validated this style.

But remember: despite a tournament's competitors using 1911s in major calibers, they are NOT permitted to be loaded at all, until the competitor is on the firing line and the range master has given the command to load; and then unloaded. It is NOT the same as carrying IWB at Walmart. And competition generally begins from the standing position.

Yet something bad happened: the carrying of pistols the way they are carried (empty) on pistol ranges 'bled' over to the street. And to being seated while carrying that way. And to dispensing with a safety strap. All of which has a reasonable chance of succeeding with proper training.

But not, which was the point of my "new paradigm" post, with striker fired pistols. The strap was not just for retention on 1911s and on DA revolvers: they blocked hammer movement, which prevented cycling to fire. WE HOLSTER MAKERS CANNOT PREVENT A STRIKER FIRED PISTOL FROM FIRING WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED.

It is not the same problem, but it is being TREATED as the same problem, as carrying a 1911 in Condition One. Instead it is like carrying a DA or SA revolver already cocked.

 

[WR Moore]

I've still got a model 55* Safariland duty holster & belt I bought in 1969 or early 1970. The thumb break safety strap passed between cocked hammer & slide rear as an additional safety barrier. It did have the unfortunate tendency over time to work the thumb safety off when you wiggled around on the seat. It became habit to slide a thumb in the verify safety position while exiting the car.

*Muzzle forward raked 1911 holster.

 

[BAM-BAM]

When I carried a C&L'ed 1911 in the early 80s it was only with a thumb break that placed it's strap between the cocked hammer and slide.............pretty sure it was a Bianchi 19L (?)

 

[rednichols]

I started this particular thread, because on my 'new paradigm' post it was alleged that Condition One carry did not begin with Cooper and/or the late '60s. I was mighty surprised to discover that there could be anyone today who didn't know better. Here are a few more pics of the state of the art as it evolved into the late '60s:

1969 Andy Anderson

1960 Chic Gaylord

1967 Bianchi

1983 Gordon Davis

1968 Safariland

Note that all 1911s are Condition Three except the Cooper Combat.

Notice, too, the crediting of Jeff Cooper in the Bianchi catalogue's description of the famous Model 45 "Cooper Combat"; the 'fly-off' strap is credited to Eldon Carl. It wasn't long ago that Cooper's personal Model 45 was auctioned off (I've a picture of it somewhere).

 

[Muss Muggins]

But not, which was the point of my "new paradigm" post, with striker fired pistols. The strap was not just for retention on 1911s and on DA revolvers: they blocked hammer movement, which prevented cycling to fire. WE HOLSTER MAKERS CANNOT PREVENT A STRIKER FIRED PISTOL FROM FIRING WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED.

It is not the same problem, but it is being TREATED as the same problem, as carrying a 1911 in Condition One. Instead it is like carrying a DA or SA revolver already cocked.

So you, recognizing that striker fired pistols can and have been modified for service by significantly increasing the trigger pull weight, don't make holsters for these S&W revolver models either, because you can't prevent them from being fired: 38, 40, 42, 49, etc. . . . ?

 

[BAM-BAM]

Muss M I think all Red is saying is that Condition 1/Cocked & locked carry was the exception rather than the rule until well into the 60s or 70s.

As a guy on the upper side of 60 who's father was a police officer and competitive pistol shooter in the 50s through the 70s...IIRC......revolvers ruled both on the street and on the range well into the 70s......Dad got a Model 41 in the early 60s to shoot rimfire..... but most still shot the Model 17........ Colt 1911s all had to be rebuilt at big bucks (for the day) for the range..... so most stuck to the Model 14 or 19 with a 6" barrel.

Gold Cups were the exception but were $$$$s and only seen on the range in the hands of .... LOL... Doctors and Lawyers...

When I was growing up auto's were more curios.....or guns carried by the bad guys in movies..... not in the main stream.

 

[S&WsRsweet]

I must admit this brings back a lot of memories and one of them was Col.Coopers warning that condition 1 is for trained professionals or citizens who are willing to be trained and practice until they are proficient .Now what Jeff Cooper would consider " proficient" and what the average person considers the same is probabaly way different . My dad carried a 45 auto in the military and competed some in local matches with one but he carried a DA revolver as a police officer for 30 years and off duty even after retirement he only carried DA revolvers . I asked him why once after reading one of the Cols. articles he never carried his 45 out and about in condition 1 .He smiled and said son I ain't Jeff Cooper and most of us never will be but I have drawn and fired many rounds on the range from condition 1 when we were deciding whether to use it on our police force .He said in 500 rounds from condition 1 at speed he had twice unintentionally fired before his fron sight was actually on target ,in testing they found most officers would fire at least 1 unintentional round in 50 .On the street that could be tragic to say the least so they decided against it .That was along time ago and things have changed but I carry a DA revolver only because I am at least smart enough to know that I am not Jeff Cooper ,I hope the Col. is smiling because his writing may have saved me from myself as I was high on fast draw what we called " combat shooting" in 1977,1978,1979 I never won a match but then again I never shot myself accidently either .Honestly most of the officers back then carried revolvers a few carried small DA/ SA autos as backups or off duty but like I said things have changed and holster making te hnology will catch up with gun making technology probabaly faster than I can catch up with putting my ( many times ) crazy old man thoughts into this technology .

 

[rednichols]

So you, recognizing that striker fired pistols can and have been modified for service by significantly increasing the trigger pull weight, don't make holsters for these S&W revolver models either, because you can't prevent them from being fired: 38, 40, 42, 49, etc. . . . ?

Muss, I think I'm going to have to head over to my other threads and make this point: you appear to be looking for my posts because you are an AIWB fan and you know that I am against it; and then you make argumentative, nonsensical posts that you imagine are 'responsive'. To wit:

I don't make holsters for the small frame Smiths because I haven't yet worked up a pattern. I did work up one for a Dick Special for a very long-time customer because I felt he deserved it as a 'thank you', and it was a real pain but he is worth it. But frankly I remain to be convinced that my current design is adaptable to revolvers. The irony is that the ones I've made so far -- one each for Ruger and Smith "L" frames -- WORK really well but I just don't like the looks of them. My armourer really likes his.

With pistols that have hammers, such as 1911s and DA autos and DA revolvers and SA revolvers, holster makers CAN provide a method to absolutely prevent them from firing in the holster -- if the buyer chooses to have a strap. On the holsters I make, which are made (1) strapless with adjustable resistance to draw (2) hammer and rear sight guard, ditto (3) ThumRake (tm) that includes hammer and rear sight guard, ditto -- these options are NO CHARGE. So my customers can select them, and any/every other option including kangaroo leather lining, which costs me more money, without a cost penalty.

And no, Muss, I'm not 'shouting' in the old parlance when I use all caps, necessarily. I suppose I could instead, underline the lines I want to emphasise, if that would make you happy. But making you happy is not my role.

 

[WR Moore]

With a covered trigger guard, exactly how is a handgun going to get it's trigger pulled in the holster? OK, some idiot not removing their finger from the trigger while holstering, but that's not really in the holster.

Early holsters were leather gun buckets, often with lids. SFAIK, exposed trigger guards started around the Threepersons rig (1920's-1930's). By the 1960s, most trigger guards were again covered in the designs by major manufacturers, with the exception of the Threepersons style.

Now I can certainly appreciate the CYA approach as holster makers have no control over the amount of training, care and common sense of all customers. Back when I smithed, I got a number of moans & groans over my refusal to reduce 1911 triggers below 4 lbs (unless I knew your skill level well by personal observation-but I still wouldn't go below about 3 1/4 lbs.).

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The Internet has been a round for quite some time now. All caps is always considered to be shouting. It is a great way to emphasize your words but the protocol is that all caps is shouting. Underlining or using colors or italics or bold fonts are alternatives to shouting.

Having cleared that up I think I can clear up the issue of Condition 1 versus Condition 3 historically. Rednichols will agree with me.

Gamesmanship and/or simply high/intense levels of training allow one to carry a 1911 cocked and locked. If you are not Jeff Cooper, or Doug Koenig or Robbie Leatham, well, we hope you train as hard as those folks.

Some time ago I was watching a World War 2 film taken by an embedded newsman. It showed an American infantry company fighting in the Pacific. The officer in charge of the company pulls his pistol, racks the slide to get the gun into action, and commences firing. Clearly, the gun was carried in Condition 3. You can wager that a young American Army officer in the 1940s was not skilled enough to carry his weapon cocked and locked nor was he authorized to do so. Moreover, as I did some time in the Army in the Vietnam Era, our officers back then were not authorized to carry their pistols cocked and locked, either. They were lucky if they were allowed to carry them with a loaded magazine (I am not speaking about Soldiers in country - that might be a different proposition - I am speaking about American Army officers I knew in America in the late 1960s and early 1970s).

The holsters had flaps. We have all seen them. That is not a holster designed for Condition 1.

Thanks for the history lesson Red!

 

[-db-]

Google Books shows the earliest print reference to the phrase "cocked and locked" (Condition One) regarding the 1911 to be found in the May 12, 1917 issue of the American Rifleman (Arms and the Man) wherein the Army's Calvary Journal is quoted relaying the manual of arms for the "Army Automatic" (Model of 1911). This instruction applies specifically to calvary troops only.

American Rifleman - Google Books

 

[mbok]

During the years I worked around law enforcement revolvers were the rule. A few officers had semis for off duty or backup carry, but the standard duty weapon was still a Model 15 or maybe a 66 for .357.

I recall once when a team of Texas Rangers came to OKC working on a murder case and how odd is looked to see them carrying holstered 1911s with hammer straps between the firing pin and hammer.

Times do change.

 

[SG-688]

My family shame

Well, this is certainly mortifying.

Looking in a box for something else, I rediscovered this picture of GI's clowning at the end of WWII.
Top center is my father, channeling Dillinger in a vest and straw boater, with a .45 stuck in his pants.

Hammer down and the appendage position.

 

[DevilDog72]

When I was a wee lad growing up south of Houston my dad and two of his brothers were police officers, all carried 1911's in condition 1. My dad also had a Texas Ranger for a friend and he carried 2 1911's in condition 1. Pop left the police force after 10 years and both his brothers retired after 30 years each.... they carried their 1911's till they died and now one of my cousins carries his father's old Commander every day as a Harris County Deputy Sherriff and has done so for almost 30 years... in Condition 1. I have carried either a Gov. Mdl or Commander sized 1911 for over 30 years... in Condition 1 cocked & locked. I switched to Smith revolvers a few+....years ago, that is another story for another time.
In all that time with the 1911 in my family there was never an accidental discharge and one of my uncles had his grip safety pinned the whole time.
Carry what you will, how you will..... just carry. Ya jest never know....

 

[rednichols]

With a covered trigger guard, exactly how is a handgun going to get it's trigger pulled in the holster? OK, some idiot not removing their finger from the trigger while holstering, but that's not really in the holster.

Early holsters were leather gun buckets, often with lids. SFAIK, exposed trigger guards started around the Threepersons rig (1920's-1930's). By the 1960s, most trigger guards were again covered in the designs by major manufacturers, with the exception of the Threepersons style.

Now I can certainly appreciate the CYA approach as holster makers have no control over the amount of training, care and common sense of all customers. Back when I smithed, I got a number of moans & groans over my refusal to reduce 1911 triggers below 4 lbs (unless I knew your skill level well by personal observation-but I still wouldn't go below about 3 1/4 lbs.).

All good. I am, however, the pre-eminent Tom Threepersons Style Holster expert (I own his personal holster of 1916, made in Douglas AZ) and can bore you to death with what a T3P holster really is My resources list is more than 300 line items, of which John Bianchi's 'Blue Steel & Gunleather' entry is entirely wrong!

Indeed, though his holster predated the 1930s when Tom endorsed Sam Myres' version (we believe developed for Sam by Arno Brill), after Sam took it up it was widely copied, first by Heiser and then every other maker including Lawrence.

It's not a Threepersons Style holster, just because it's for a revolver and has its trigger exposed .

 

[rednichols]

Looking for something else whilst researching and writing The Book (my Galco file, actually) I did stumble across the early one of Jeff's writings that I mentioned on this, or another thread.

It appeared in the May 1966 issue of Guns & Ammo, is titled 'The 45 Auto -- New Arm of the Law', and mentions 'sidekicks' Ray Chapman and Thell Reed as helping with the demos for local P.D.s. Hopefully Thell is still with us, but the others have passed on, that's how much time has passed.

The prologue informs, quoting Chief French of Los Alamitos P.D.:

" Each man has a choice of one of two options. He may carry the weapon cocked and locked, or he may carry it with the hammer fully down on a loaded chamber".

 

[-db-]

Red, I believe Thell Reed is still alive and perhaps still assisting/advising film crews in Hollywood.

This reminds me of a great book I recently picked up titled Fast Draw...Yesterday Today by Tom Blasgen. It's actually more like a scrapbook, 600+ pages comprising a compilation of pretty much every old magazine article ever printed on the topic of fast draw. Everything and everyone ever involved in that scene is covered and there's particularly a lot of material covering holster makers from that era- the Big 3, of course, Ojala, Anderson and Alfonso, but also the guys who came later- Ted Blocker, Ernie Hill, Mernickle, etc. Just tons of material. You need to get this book if you don't yet have it.

I can't find any online links to the book aside from the eBay auction I won, but it's definitely worth seeking out: FAST DRAW YESTERDAY TODAY TOM BLASGEN SIGNED BOOK OLD COWBOY GUN PISTOL COLT | eBay

 

[Rastoff]

It is not the same problem, but it is being TREATED as the same problem, as carrying a 1911 in Condition One. Instead it is like carrying a DA or SA revolver already cocked.

Yes, I would call carrying a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber the same as carrying a 1911 in condition 0; full mag inserted, round chambered, hammer cocked and safety off.


Just a note: The picture posted by SG-688 is not appendix carry (certainly not "appendage" carry ). That is what I'd call belly carry and I would not recommend it even in C2 or C3.

 

[jimmyj]

In the Military (of yesteryear) "Condition 3" was the mode of carry. However some guys (Jimmy) carried "Condition 1" This was done (Condition 3 to Condition 1) after relief and again right before my relief was due to arrive (Condition 1 back to Condition 3).
I knew MPs that could draw halfway from the holster, turn the M1911 side ways, push down on the weapon thus chambering a round and thus the weapon was in Condition 1 when the weapon cleared the holster.

 

[Wise_A]

Yes, I would call carrying a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber the same as carrying a 1911 in condition 0; full mag inserted, round chambered, hammer cocked and safety off.