That's a beauty! Model of 1953, first to have a real J frame size grip. '54 is about as good an estimate as I anyone can make.
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The Really Old Chief's Special Thread
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handejector
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There was at least one!
See Posts #10 and #16 here-
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/222583-scarce-lil-baby.html#post136250332
Lee,
Ask, and you shall receive. Thanks! It's great to pin that down! Rare, rare, rare.
Neat story. I've always said, a "good show" is not always relative to its size but more to what you find. Do you think the seller had any idea what he had?
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Got to keep a thread such as this alive. Here's my three digit serial number Chiefs Special.
Also, a couple folks along the way asked qustions and so far as I can see never got responses.
First, from #148 in this thread:
From the photo, your revolver appears to be an early Airweight with its original alloy cylinder. You will typically see a caution with regards to these that they are unsafe to shoot, although I cannot verify any instance in which one has actually "blown up." At the very least, now that you are informed of the potential risk involved, if you do nevertheless choose to shoot it, be sure you are using a mild load - absolutely no +P or anything like that in this gun!
Posting #97 also I don't think ever received any answer:
That actually is datable from the SCSW - it's one of the infamous "floating J" serial numbered guns, and was most likely shipped in late 1971. I'll leave it to one of our resident experts on S&W packaging to comment on just how unusual the gray box may be and if it enhances the value much above the more common blue box.
Also, a couple folks along the way asked qustions and so far as I can see never got responses.
First, from #148 in this thread:
From the photo, your revolver appears to be an early Airweight with its original alloy cylinder. You will typically see a caution with regards to these that they are unsafe to shoot, although I cannot verify any instance in which one has actually "blown up." At the very least, now that you are informed of the potential risk involved, if you do nevertheless choose to shoot it, be sure you are using a mild load - absolutely no +P or anything like that in this gun!
Posting #97 also I don't think ever received any answer:
That actually is datable from the SCSW - it's one of the infamous "floating J" serial numbered guns, and was most likely shipped in late 1971. I'll leave it to one of our resident experts on S&W packaging to comment on just how unusual the gray box may be and if it enhances the value much above the more common blue box.
handejector
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To me, majake's gun appears to have a steel cylinder. That would be a very late gun for the aluminum cyl.
I can finally join this Thread!
I can not post an image presently but will offer a short describe -
S&W 5 Screw, Snubby, Half-Round Front Sight, .38 Special, 5 Shot Cylinder, Flat Latch, Serial Number on Butt, underside of Barrel, and, Cylinder Face, is 979.
I can not access my big S&W Book at this time...can anyone tell me roughly when this one was made?
Thanks!
I can not post an image presently but will offer a short describe -
S&W 5 Screw, Snubby, Half-Round Front Sight, .38 Special, 5 Shot Cylinder, Flat Latch, Serial Number on Butt, underside of Barrel, and, Cylinder Face, is 979.
I can not access my big S&W Book at this time...can anyone tell me roughly when this one was made?
Thanks!
Yup, this is a great thread!
Here's my offering....my 1960 vintage Model 38. I bought it well used in 1980, and it been in my pocket near every day since then. I recently added a laser grip though, the sights seem to be shrinking.
Here's my offering....my 1960 vintage Model 38. I bought it well used in 1980, and it been in my pocket near every day since then. I recently added a laser grip though, the sights seem to be shrinking.
Lee, I agree that at 452XX it would certainly have to be one of the very last ones, but there were some made up into the 40K serial number range, and it still looks to me as if that could be an alloy cylinder....
I'd like to have been able to see the other side to determine if there was a "bug" screw.
Maybe even after all this time, majake will weigh back in to settle the matter.
Even if it is a steel cylinder, I'd still maintain that putting +P ammo through it wouldn't be advisable.
Additional Edits: I downloaded that photo and manipulated and enhanced it by various means, and will now concede that it is in fact a steel cylinder. Just didn't look that way to me at first. One of the perils in living in a high definition world with older, low definition eyes....
With regard to James' post following this one, when I (too casually) looked at that photo, the gun didn't appear to be nickeled, but the label in the other photo is marked "N" for finish, and of course you are absolutely correct.
Maybe I should just stop responding to questions, as I don't lately seem to be getting any of the answers right.
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The box is gray/grey because the gun is nickel.
The cylinder matches the barrel and yoke quite well, I'd have to say steel.
I picked up a chief's special tonight with a low 300XX serial number. Can someone please tell me when this gun was made. Thank you. It has a flat latch and serrated front ramp. Everything is matching on it and it is in very good shape. I kinda bought it on the spur of the moment not really knowing much about it except it was probably relatively old with the serial number. The gun is in very good shape other than a little blueing wear on the cylinder and one grip has a slight nick in it. I got it for $195. How did I do?
Welcome to the forum. I don't see that you ever got an answer. Frankly that price is a bargain for any Chief of any vintage in that condition. For that "Baby" Chief made in 1953 it's less than 1/2 price, sometimes only a 3rd.
Thank you Hondo44..!
Is there an opinion among informed Collectors of these early Chief Specials, on when or roughly what serial Number the Half-Round Front Sight was succeeded by the Ramp Sight?
I have never found the answer more clearly defined than right here in this thread. As with most changes there is a transition period over time because the guns were not completed or shipped in serial number order.
Therefore in this thread I find the high number round sight #'d 11,6XX, but most below the 4600 range. I find the lowest #'d smooth ramp (the 1st style ramp) 466X up as high as 9108 and lowest #'d serrated ramp sited guns from 27XXX and up. So both round sites and smooth ramps at least mixed in a transiton period of 466X to 11,6XX.
Just the opposite; the large short screw is the upper sideplate screw (most often seen w/o the smaller screw) and notched for locking in place by the smaller or "bug" screw when it is present (as shown below).
Actually, the dates are deceiving. #6 was the first "J" frame made and is listed as 10/27/1950, #972 is listed as 11/19/1951, a little over a year later.
I would think that 979 would be around the same timeframe, but only a letter will confirm that.
Hi Bob,
Yes, you're no doubt probably right. I was answering his question literally since he asked when it was made. The difference of course being Smith's "batch assembly" system and the "1st in the vault, last out" syndrome which can delay shipment by years sometimes.
The 'date made' is unconfirmable albeit the one I prefer to shipping date.
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Is anything known about what happened to Serial Nos. 1 - 5?
Thanks for the additional info on mine...much appreciated!
Inferences or peramiters of when made...Letters which can say when shipped...shipping dates of course liable to have been subject to what was elected for an Order from whatever array of ready Stock or delays in completing individual examples needing correction or something...all tolled late '51 for mine, as an educated guess, is plenty close-enough for me.
Maybe someday someone will begin a 'Registry' for early 'Lettered' Chief's Specials, and, we can see how shipping dates relate to Serial Nos. over a longer span of time.
So far, looks like it took about a year for the first Thousand to be made?
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Green Frog
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I wonder about that too. Perhaps the first 5 were prototype shop guns, built for testing and never meant for circulation??
This is a good idea, and I wouldn't be surprised to find someone is already doing this. With the improving access to stored data @ S&W, perhaps the next edition of SCSW or some other book will have it.
I think this estimate might be a little low due to the vagaries of mfg vs shipment dates. This little gun seems to have been pretty popular from its introduction. I may be wrong, but I'd guess quite a few more than 1000 came out that first full year of production.
Just FYI, BC # 42287 is still a true Baby, but has flat latch and serrated ramp front sight. How many years (total did they make the BC?)
Froggie
Green Frog
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I believe "bug screw" is a fairly common term among machinists to describe the bug-like appearance of a second, smaller screw used just for locking its larger partner in a specific postion. In the case of the Air Weight, I would think use of a bug screw would have probably been useful to discourage cranking down too hard on that top screw and stripping out the threads in the aluminum frame... JMHO.
OK, but what happened to the sights between numbers 11,6XX and 27XXX? Were they still non-serrated ramps, back to round, or what?
Also, I don't have my SCSW with me right now... what was the last date and the highest known SN for the change from Baby Chief to the "full sized" J-frame Chief Special? Was it as early as the time the Model 1953 I-frames were being discontinued, or what? Somebody oughta write a book! (Hint to Hondo44)Froggie
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handejector
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Just the opposite; the large short screw is the upper sideplate screw (most often seen w/o the smaller screw) and notched for locking in place by the smaller or "bug" screw when it is present (as shown below).
"Bug Screw" is a rather ambiguous term. You won't even find a definition in the American Machinists' Handbook.I believe "bug screw" is a fairly common term among machinists to describe the bug-like appearance of a second, smaller screw used just for locking its larger partner in a specific postion. In the case of the Air Weight, I would think use of a bug screw would have probably been useful to discourage cranking down too hard on that top screw and stripping out the threads in the aluminum frame... JMHO.
So, we are left with traditional usage and colloquial definitions of the term.
All my life, I have heard it used for screws that lock other screws or parts. Decades ago I first heard it used to describe the screws that lock the trigger guard screws of Mauser rifles.
Roy Jinks, now the factory Historian and formerly Production Manager of S&W calls the large upper sideplate screw the "bug screw", so we can assume that terminology is acceptable at the factory!
Parts catalogs of the pre-war era call them:
Plate Screw (large head)
Plate Screw (small head)
One can see how the factory personnel would prefer 'bug screw' to 'large upper sideplate screw' for conversing day in and day out.
This is a reasonable application of the term.
Note that it functions in a manner different from the other sideplate screws, and most screws in general. Think about it- most screws go through one part and into another which is threaded. This upper sideplate screw does not. It actually clamps or locks the upper sideplate corner in position by threading directly into the frame and clamping the sideplate with its large overhanging head that descends into the countersink.
The gun pictured above has:
a bug screw that has a bug screw.
crsides
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I think some of the confusion comes from the use of "UPPER" side plate screw, a term we all associate with the large head screw seen on all 5 screw guns.
Now comes along a second screw which is even higher "UP" than the upper side plate screw. So the confusion may come from just which screw on the airweight 37 pictured is the "upper" side plate screw.
My vote for bug screw goes to the smaller screw (the most upper one).
Charlie
Now comes along a second screw which is even higher "UP" than the upper side plate screw. So the confusion may come from just which screw on the airweight 37 pictured is the "upper" side plate screw.
My vote for bug screw goes to the smaller screw (the most upper one).
Charlie
handejector
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Let me know when you tell Roy and the factory oldtimers- I wanna be there.
Let me know when you tell Roy and the factory oldtimers- I wanna be there.
This is probably an issue about which we'll all have to agree to dis-agree.
I'd like to be there when Roy and the factory oldtimers tell Supica & Nahas, and Browning employees; reference 'Bug Screw' with illustration, pg. 409, SCSW 3rd edition.
#1 is on display at the S&W factory museum IIRC. 2 & 3 were shipped out of the country, # 4 was being chased by a friend of mine and #5 was shipped to a writer at one of the gun magazines.
I would guess that most of the first 100 are buried deep in private collections and won't see the light of day for years to come.
I started a thread about them a while back asking for photos of early Chief Specials and there were several 5 digit, a couple 4 digit and maybe one three digit. IIRC one member posted about 2 from the first 100 but that was all.
handejector
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There's NO doubt the little locking screw is a bug screw.
It is.
That's a fact.
My post was to explain that Roy and factory workers considered the upper sideplate screw a bug screw, and it fits the locking definition of a bug screw.
I don't see much to disagree about. If they used the term, they have to be right- they made the gun and they made the screw. If they had called it a doohickey, it would be a doohickey, no matter what we called it.
Question about those doohickeys if you please
I have seen some of those old pictures that show numerous screw machines on the S&W shop floor from back in the day.
Is it safe to say that S&W manufactured their own threaded fasteners (screws if you will) and if the did, these were a cut thread, correct.
Has Smith ever used a fastener with rolled thread?? Any insight on if / when commercially purchased rolled thread screws might have been incorporated or do they still use a cut thread ?
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