THE Story of a S&W 1917 in .45LC the "Wimer vs Jinks" Controversy:

[Moon Guns]

Our story starts on a cold winter New Years Eve Dec 31, 1925 in the West Virginia Coal town of Bluefield when Mr. W.R. Albert took his S&W 1917 Serial # 89915 to Bluefield Supply Co. Wholesale Hardware, Mine, Mill, Electrical Supplies & Equipment to have them send it off to S&W for a repair. On April 12, 1926 the Bluefield treasurer sent a letter to S&W to follow up on the 12/31/25 repair order, he stated they had told S&W to furnish necessary repair for $5.81 on March 13th and ship as early as possible. Our customer is asking for a shipping date and we will thank you to let same go forward as early as possible, advising us what to expect. S&W received the letter on Apr.14 and replied on the 15th. There is no record of what the repair was but, in 1926 $5.81 ($104.00 in 2024)...that was Big $$$ for a 25 year old in the Depression plagued Appalachians with the coal mines closed after WWI,d strikes at the ones left open employment was hard to find. Jump to Feb. 6, 1926 as W.R Albert pens a request to S&W(in his words)to fix his S&W DA .45 to Remington .45 S&W regular lead nose cartridges, clean the barrel & install Pearl grips. S&W received the letter on Feb.8,1926 and the paperwork shows he shipped it this time along with the letter via the Express Office. S&W responded on Feb.10,1926 that they would use a .45 Colt cylinder(which will chamber the .45 S&W as it's an 1/8 shorter) for $7.64($120.00 in 2024 $) and that they cannot furnish Pearl or Ivory stocks(which I found strange). On Feb.15 W.R. Albert sent a money order and requested it be returned to the Bluefield Express Office, S&W shipped it back on Feb.24. I remember reading somewhere that the .45acp was in short supply after WWI, possibly there was a good supply of Remington .45S&W available and this might have been his reason for the caliber change. His occupation, one can only guess as there is no employment record. He was killed in a hit & run car accident Feb.27,1945. William Russell Albert 1905-1945. We jump to July 15, 2002 La Grande, Or. and S&W collector George Wimer has purchased a S&W 1917 chambered in .45 Colt not .45acp as all others are and the cylinder is properly numbered 89915(no S proof), he requests a letter on the S&W 1917 Serial #89915 that he knows is chambered in .45Colt hoping for the letter to confirm a caliber that was never produced in a US 1917 by Colt or S&W during WWI. Well the letter came back as all 1917's do shipped July 30, 1918 Springfield Armory .45acp, 5-1/2" barrel, blue finish, walnut grips as part of a very large shipment. Mr. Jinks stated that it was changed to .45 Colt probably by the factory after it was sold as war surplus. Well, sticking to his Gun's Mr.Wimer would have none of that and an exchange of letters between "Wimer vs Jinks" ensued (all included for your reading enjoyment) until Sept.11, 2002 ending with an apology of sorts to Mr. Jinks with Mr.Wimer still insisting that with the confusion of rushed wartime production of thousands of pistols someone at the factory built the 1917 in .45 Colt during the WWI production run a fabled "Lunch Box" gun, Mr.Jinks standing firm on his post war S&W conversion. We jump to May 2003 Nevada City, Ca and I purchase the 1917 from George and put it away in the safe. Next to Mar. 2024 and I'm getting ready to sell the 1917 so I take a closer look at the serial # on the cylinder with a 16X lope and Damn there was no way it was not done by S&W... taking up Georges quest hoping to verify the .45 COLT caliber, I sent a request with the all the "Wimer vs Jinks" correspondence to Mr. Michael Helms at the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation to see what he could find on a chance there was a record of the repair....A few days later I received an email from Mike..."You had better go buy a Lottery Ticket" as he found the correspondence & repair order for the .45 Colt cylinder and an earlier invoice for a repair. I was Blown Away as that was a real long shot...What a Find...Mr. Jinks was right...Sorry George! So that put an end to the decades old "Wimer vs Jinks" controversy of a 1917 in .45 Colt with 14 pages of correspondence/documentation. I uploaded five of the doc's for your reading pleasure, didn't know how to post the balance?
I had a fellow collector make this comment about the 1917 and I have to Agree!
I like this story. Buy the gun, not the story. Yours is the exception. The story is the gun is the story! The gun is the story is the gun! As they say in this case. My good friend, the late Jackie Frescerelli, long time Colts employee, always said ".... never say never about Colts or Smith & Wesson....". I hope you do well on your old wheel gun. It's and odd-one-of-a-kind. FT
A Special Thanks to Mr. Michael Helms SWHF Historian for his invaluable research on this 1917!

 

[handejector]

The Great Depression did not start till 1929.
Is George Wimer still alive?

I uploaded five of the doc's for your reading pleasure, didn't know how to post the balance?

Just attach them in subsequent posts.
If you will number them in chronological order, I'll post them in large size for you.

 

[Truckman]

I like this thread a lot, as I have my own mystery guns to verify......Ben

 

[rct269]

Ah yes---George Wimer---I remember him well!!

If/when you were in need of a 99.9 % gun, that's almost all he had in his ads in the Gun List.

Them there was the "good old days!!"

Ralph Tremaine

Edited to add: It took me awhile, but I eventually got wind of the fact you could get the Gun List by UPS Next Day Air for a paltry $200 a year----as opposed to waiting a week or more for the Post Man.

The very first issue that arrived at 10:00 A.M. on a Friday (having been published on Thursday) had an "AS NEW" 8 3/4" Registered Magnum listed for sale-- for $2300! You never saw anybody move so fast grabbing the phone as I did. Now the bad news was the fellow with the Magnum knew the Gun List was published on Thursday---and he was totally bumfuzzled as to how I had it the very next day-----at 10:00 no less! The other bad news was he was NOT the least bit inclined to reduce his price because I was the very first one to call him. The good news was I didn't give a rat if he lowered his price or not---and I paid it----RIGHT THEN AND THERE!!!!

The way that worked at my office was if you called me after 10:00 on a Friday morning, a very nice lady told you Mr. Tremaine was not available at present, and would return the call later this afternoon---and I always did---unless, of course, I was tied up on other calls trying to buy guns.

Like I said, "Them there was the good old days!!"

 

[Jack Flash]

Interesting post; remember that paragraphs are your friend!

 

[rct269]

Yeah-----that (^^^^^) was a bit more than difficult piece to read!

And as much as I hate to admit it, I didn't realize it until you told me that it was the paragraph bit.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Model19man]

The Great Depression did not start till 1929.

And the WPA did not start until maybe 1935. Serious errors in the OP's first post. Mr. Jinks is very correct.

 

[Heinz]

Moon Guns, Great Post. As to Mr Russel's employment records: There was a significant business involving clear liquids and Mason jars in that area of Appalachia in the 1920 to 1933 time period. Very poor records were kept by these enterprises.

 

[Truckman]

There was a significant business involving clear liquids and Mason jars in that area of Appalachia in the 1920 to 1933 time period.

And large caliber handguns were often a necessary tool of that trade......Ben

 

[rct269]

Moon Guns, Great Post. As to Mr Russel's employment records: There was a significant business involving clear liquids and Mason jars in that area of Appalachia in the 1920 to 1933 time period. Very poor records were kept by these enterprises.

That's for sure---and it isn't unheard of in the hills around here now!

I always wonder pretty much anytime I see smoke rising in those hills----I wonder if. I've decided it ain't likely, seeing as how these folks' Momma's don't raise hardly any dumb kids!

Then again, you don't have to go to the hills to find some----you'll come across it pretty much any Saturday at the "Farmers Market". Interestingly enough, the "Farmers Market" premises consist of rather spiffy structures erected (and paid for) by the county government (right next to the Court House)----doing their part for the economy, don't you know.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[AlHunt]

I'll look forward to the rest of the letters. The one we have from Mr. Jinx sounds like he was a little annoyed ...

 

[Muley Gil]

"and that they cannot furnish Pearl or Ivory stocks(which I found strange)"

S&W was unable to source pearl material large enough and thick enough to make decent stocks.

 

[rct269]

The very same "Mr. Jinx" once told me in a letter (February 14, 2017) on a King Super Target Triple Lock with Ivory service style grips which was offered to me with those, or some rather funky looking wooden target grips, that "Smith & Wesson did not offer ivory grips for their "N" frame revolvers. The ivory grips were generally added by the distributor or dealer to fill a special order." (God forbid those funky looking wooden grips were Ropers!!) As to pearls, I don't know diddly about pearls for N frames.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Moon Guns]

The Story of a S&W 1917 Part 2

The next 5 pic's.

 

[Moon Guns]

TheStory of a S&W 1917 part 3

Last 5 pic's.


An article on the history of Blufield stated in the mid 20's the "Appalachians" were in a Depression after WWI due to most of the Coal Mines closing, the others on strike. It mentioned the WPA as a source of work, since that is incorrect I have removed it from the post.


I figured the post was long enough as not to make it longer with paragraphs etc....


Your right "Heinz" probably a Bootlegger or Strike Breaker.

 

[pasound]

Nice history thread. And as a West Virginian, with 5 generations of West Virginians behind me, yes the full Depression did not start until 1929. But full blown unemployment was rampant before that time. The end of WWI cut coal production in WV to a bare minimum. My grandfather was a coal miner then, raising then three of the six children he would have. He was on strike or just out of work more often in the 1920's than any other time in his life.

 

[CH4]

I figured the post was long enough as not to make it longer with paragraphs etc....

As a former professor, I thought I’d heard em all. Any relation to Timothy Dexter?

Friendly ribbing aside, it was an interesting read.

Thanks

 

[Moon Guns]

An update from an observant collector who pointed out the barrel underside does not have the usual "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" stamp which might explain the first repair of $5.81 which did not show what was repaired. Being there are only three main components, frame cylinder and barrel. I know the frame wasn't replaced, the cylinder was in the second repair for $7.64 that leaves the barrel at $5.81 first repair? Being a commercial repair/sale they would not have supplied a barrel with "USP" stamped on it. It does have an eagle proof and of course the serial# on the barrel flat.

Does anyone know when the "USP" was applied to the barrels?