The Tale of 2 Walthers

[Tyrod]

I just got my M&P22 today. It's a mate to my Colt 1911 Rail Gun. The lineage is unmistakable. They come from the same manufacturer if not the same factory. Of course, that's no surprise as they're both marked Walther. Except for length, the barrels are identical and except for the location of the mag catch and base plates the magazines are identical.

But are they actually Walther made Walthers? The following information comes from many hours of research and isn't conclusive. The evidence comes in the proof marks. There are at least 2 Umarexs. The parent is a german manufacturer of airsoft products. The other is wholly owned subsidiary based in the US that is an importer of Umarex products, Umarex USA.

Umarex in Germany owns Walther, Hammerli, and Rohm. Some names I'm sure you'll recognise. Now on to specifics. Walther is located in Ulm, Germany. It just so happens that the German government has a proof house in Ulm. The symbol for the ULM proofhouse is a single antler. Umarex is located in Arnsberg, Germany. The closest proofhouse to Arnsberg is in Cologne (Koln). The symbol for the Cologne proof house is a shield with 3 crowns.

Both my M&P22 and Colt Rail Gun have Cologne proof marks. Pictures of the Walther P22 I've seen show Cologne proof marks as well.

The symbology of European Proof Marks can be found here:
[URL="http://store.bluebookinc.com/INFO/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf[/URL]

We know that Umarex manufactures 22lr rifles that copy the AR type rifle. They're reputation for quality in these rifles is not so good. Additionally, the quality in their airsoft products is spotty. I assume that Umarex is manufacturing the P22, M&P22 and the 3 Colt 1911 models in Arnsberg based on the proof marks and just slapping the Walther name on them because there are few gun manufactuers with Walther's quality reputation.

I have communicated with many folks over the interweb including some that live in Germany and they have come to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I've yet to communicate with anyone that actually works at either factory to verify my theory.

Incidentally, the date code goes like this: 0=A, 1=B, 2=C.....

In any event, I love the Colt. It has had few ammo problem. I expect the same from the M&P22. So, in the end, who cares, if the guns work good.

 

[bolewine]

What does nitro proofed mean, I thought that was used to mark guns that were black powder, and reproofed for smokeless powder?

 

[Tyrod]

What does nitro proofed mean, I thought that was used to mark guns that were black powder, and reproofed for smokeless powder?

Proof marks aren't something we see alot on American guns and most American are only superficially aware they exist and usually only in the context of military firearms. The europeans, on the other hand, take proofing quite seriously. Nitro Proofing along with the stamp is proof the gun has been fired. I don't know if this is still the case, but at one time proof loads were at a power level substantially over what is commercially available.

There is a famous case of a US Marine that lodged a Beretta 92 slide into his head, via the eye opening, by repeatedly firing proof loads in the newly adopted Beretta 92.

 

[bolewine]

My grandfather's rigby sxs rifle is marked nitro proofed and I remember him telling me of the time he sent it back to england to have it re- proofed for smokless powder. that's how I remember him explaneing it.

 

[Engine49guy]

Sounds like back in the day a name meant something like "WHO MADE IT?"
Nowadays the name is just something stamped on the side.
Kinda neat when your Chinese BB gun says S&W in thier "Licensed" trademark,
But if they can legitimately "Loan" out their name how do we as consumers know we are really buying their product with assurance of quality?

OK Bottom line,
I know that Chinese $40 BB gun has no lifetime warranty and I cant send it to S&W for lifetime warranty repair...BUT ...
What about that German copy of their 9mm in .22lr?
Does it have a lifetime warranty ?
Does that warranty "expire" with their contract to UMAREX?

 

[Tyrod]

Sounds like back in the day a name meant something like "WHO MADE IT?"
Nowadays the name is just something stamped on the side.
Kinda neat when your Chinese BB gun says S&W in thier "Licensed" trademark,
But if they can legitimately "Loan" out their name how do we as consumers know we are really buying their product with assurance of quality?

OK Bottom line,
I know that Chinese $40 BB gun has no lifetime warranty and I cant send it to S&W for lifetime warranty repair...BUT ...
What about that German copy of their 9mm in .22lr?
Does it have a lifetime warranty ?
Does that warranty "expire" with their contract to UMAREX?

Unlike my Walther Colt which was imported by Umarex USA, the M&P22 is imported directly by S&W and carries the same warranty as any other S&W firearm.

As far as Brand Recognition goes and how it relates to quality. It's a crapshoot. Sort of a "who's on first" situation. With mergers, hostile takeovers, alliances and all the other tomfoolery that goes on in the business world, it's damn difficult to figure out who makes what or what part. I learned a long time ago that there is no assurance of anything when dealing with favored brands or what you think of as a quality company. The best advice I can give anyone is to do your due diligence and research the gun you want to buy by looking at forums and youtube or word of mouth or by experiences of the exact gun by friends or acquaintances.

 

[jaykellogg]

Re. the lifetime warranty, S&W may have agreements that even after the M&P is no longer manufactured they can still get parts. Of course if Umarex or S&W go out of business the warranty cannot be continued.

The only concern I have (mild concern) is the proof marks appear to be only printed on the gun. In the past I have used proofs to track the history of collector guns. I would much rather have them laser marked or stamped.

 

[Rangel]

I've heard that guns not actually manufactured by Walther under their quality control, sometimes in plants in Germany or elsewhere, then are are taken and 'proof shot' at the actual Walther plants and only then given the Ulm and Kohl stamps, which of course, increases their appeal to some. I can't 100% verify this, but it's been stated as such in other forums.

 

[Tyrod]

The only concern I have (mild concern) is the proof marks appear to be only printed on the gun. In the past I have used proofs to track the history of collector guns. I would much rather have them laser marked or stamped.

As are the remainder of the markings on the slide. The markings seem to be quite resistant to typical gun & bore solvents. I would hazard a guess that they are indeed laser marked, just not laser etched. The laser marking system uses a solution applied and then the mark or symbol is lasered which changes the characteristics of the applied solution making a more than just painted durable finish. I very much doubt the markings would hold up to any kind of abrasive.

I rather doubt these guns will ever hold any collector value. However, I've been wrong plenty of times before.

 

[Tyrod]

then are are taken and 'proof shot' at the actual Walther plants

One of the German gentlemen I communicated with retired from the Ulm proof house. He said, unlike Brittish proof houses, German proof houses dispatch the proofing employees directly to the factory. He went on to say that he reported directly to the Walther factory every day, to proof guns, instead of going to the proof house. Usually, his visits to the actual proof house only occured once a month.

 

[IcedDog]

Thanks for the research, I was just going to ask about the proof marks on my M&P22...mystery solved. I was particularly curious about the Cologne proof, as it looks very much like the Swedish 3 crown symbol.

 

[mag318]

Thanks for posting your research, those proofmarks were of interest to many here. Wherever the M&P22 is made in Germany I'm impressed with it's build quality. I'll wager that when S&W entered into the manufacturing agreement with Walther they had to meet certain standards. I believe those S&W standards have been met. I have over 2K troublefree rounds through mine and it is an accurate, reliable pistol.

 

[Tyrod]

Going into further research I found that the SIG Sauer Mosquito and the SIG Sauer 1911-22 have the exact same proof marks. I was thinking "holy cow does Umarex make these too". It turns out that GSG in Germany makes those guns for SIG in GSG's factory in Ense Germany. Ense is 17km up the road from the Umarex factory in Arnsberg Germany. The Cologne Proof House would be the proof house used for both factories.

 

[VN Vet]

Well heck. I still think my M&P 22 is a sweet pistol, but now it could be a glorified air gun. I guess that is OK, since I have a CO2 Walther P5 BB Gun that is a blast to shoot. I knew I would learn something today from you guys.

Vv